[strawman]

Hi guys--I'm hoping to get some feedback from folks who have experience playing in bands, especially with people who are often very different in their nature. The band I'm in is semi-serious and has been around quite a while. We play about 2-3 gigs a month. The youngest person is over 40 an we've all been playing a long time. I will say now, I'm generally pretty mellow, go with the flow and don't sweat the small stuff. I would consider myself an old hippy.

Basically, one guy tends to write the setlists and dictate most of the musical direction. It's supposed to be a "democracy" but it really isn't, at least not when it tends to matter. He is kinda of a control freak but is somewhat open to input at times and generally pretty tolerable.
There's a second guy who tends to go with the flow and let everyone else deal with most decisions musically and gig-wise. Very mellow fellow who gets along well with everyone on Earth.

Then there's another guy (we'll call him Mark) who tends to do most of the booking. He has pretty much taken over making contacts and booking gigs, dealing with pay issues, etc. He is very high-strung and often neurotic/anxious about little things. He has a hard time if people talk too long at rehersal, he wants to have a setlist ahead of time, he is fairly rigid in general--Jerry would probably call him a "cop" during some of his finer moments. It's so bad sometimes that he has even had serious stress-related health problems.

I have found us gigs a few times and every time I book it, etc, he has to jump in and get all involved as if I would F something up of he didn't take control. This has historically been annoying to me (to say the least) but I've always tolerated it in the past---I've also told him I don't like it and have asked him to back-off---basically to no avail.

So, I played with a whole different group at a brand new place a month ago and I go out of my way to talk to the manager and get our band booked there. I have it all handled--money, date, load-in arrangements, etc. About a week before the gig, Mark asks for the email addy for the manager and I ask him why---he doesn't answer. Then he sends back an email saying, "I stopped by, it's cool". I ask what that means and he says "They have no problem with it being non-smoking". He just went there himself, butts in and tells the manager he needs it to be non-smoking. Lies to her about his health reasons and, in fact, he didn't even talk to the correct person (there are 2 managers). Well, when I get to the gig, the manager (who I booked with) says to me "WTF, why is this non-smoking? It'll make half our crowd leave!" and is clearly not pleased with this BS as they thought it was a normal gig and lots of people at this place smoke. BTW, it's a big place and only a part of it is non-smoking AND, they have planty of ventilation as well. So I told the manager that I didn't want it to be non-smoking (FWIW--I smoke) and as far as I was concerned, I'll just tell Mark too F'in bad, it's smoking whether he likes it or not. (BTW---this guy still smokes weed even though his health issues are heart related).

So I tell Mark that I cannot believe he caused this manager to be disgruntled at our first gig that I booked and that I am pissed that he once again can never leave well enough alone. I tell him I'm sick of dealing with his control-freak issues and he jumps in his car and storms off after saying, "F You, do the gig without me". So, he leaves me and the mellow guy there, we still hadn't got the PA unloaded into the venue completely let alone my stuff and now, we don't even know if we're gonna be able to play this gig---should we load in or not...etc, etc. The manager is now like WTF, are you guys gonna play or not?? Real professional, eh?

So, after about a half hour, and a good smoothing over by ther mellow guy, he comes back and we do play the gig. I didn't say one word to him or vice-versa. I still haven't talked to him and really have nothing to say to him except that I'm still pissed and I think he owes me and the other members an apology.

I'm not sure I want to stay in this band with this guy and I definitely am not going to be able to be enjoying being around him right now. I am really digging this band and don't want to quit but I don't think I can be in it any longer if he doesn't apologize and try to back-off some.


Am I being an asshole for expecting that a control freak like him can somehow find a way to not always need to butt into every last thing or do you think he was way out of line and should apologize? TIA and for reading.

[Charlie]

Hey Strawman sounds like a big hassle. What your band mate did re the non-smoking thing was really stupid and he needs his ass kicked. That sort of behavior undermines your effort and is not going to endear any band to a venue. It's generally best if only one band member deals with venues. It tends to get confusing otherwise.

Maybe your band needs to sit and work out exactly who is going to take responsibility for what roles. If the guy who books most of the gigs is doing a good job maybe he should be the one to do it (as long as you can stand working with him). One way to arrange this is to have some business cards printed with his contact details and then refer him to any venue you have been talking to or vice versa. Before this happens though the band needs to make a collective decision about issues like the minimum they are prepared to play for, smoking/non-smoking policies etc.

As for the guy who writes the set lists, it's good to have someone prepared to do that. If they are working fine. I find set lists a good guide but should not be set in stone as crowds/venues differ greatly from night to night. If it's a Dead crowd and they are calling for say St Stephen and it's in your repertoire, you should play it even if it's not on the set list.

The Dead is probably the most noteable exception to the rule but in my experience band democracies rarely work.

[brbadg]

Let me guess,is he the lead singer or the drummer? ...ducking... I think you should have a meeting and just say whoever books the gig is the contact person.If you get too many contact people with conflicting requests you could lose the gig,because managers have a lot of stuff they have to put up with.Make it easy for them.I'm wondering how this guy was able to request a non smoking gig.I would think the club dictates their policies,not the bands.I will say in Maryland,it's non smoking,and people have adjusted well,so it's not the issue it used to be.That's all I have,but I think a little communicating is in order, and remember this is still supposed to be fun,and if it's not,it' might be time for another project.

[strumminsix]

helluva first post, strawman

[playingdead]

Sorry dude,I didn't know I was freaking you that much out about things ... LOL.

Seriously, bands are like families, and most of them are dysfunctional. My personal philosophy is life's too short to put up with a--holes if you're not related to 'em. If someone's a control freak, or a drunk, or can't play, or gets in everyone's face, give 'em the boot and find someone you can get along with. You'll be much happier in the long run.

My current band is remarkably tranquil and drama free, and everyone's a quality musician. Kind of a miracle.

I've played with people who are tremendously talented, but either jerks or just impossible to deal with because they're either prima donnas because they are so good or because they have personality problems or substance abuse issues. Always a relief to have them out of the picture. Plenty of other people out there who like this music. Hell, move to Boston and start a new Dead band. There's fourteen or fifteen of them there now.

[strumminsix]

Have you considered just taking a back seat and only worry about playing? Having worn a few hats with bands I do sorta miss the no responsibility role at times.

[tcsned]

Welcome to the group!

It's a tough call, I've been in situations where the band drama issues were getting way out of hand and it was killing my enjoyment of playing. Unfortunately, it was probably the pinnacle of my band's success. We were getting good gigs and making good money. Our issues were different but explosive. We had been together 7 or 8 years at the time and thinking that this was a pretty long investment in time that I would try to weather the storm to see if things improved. They did, it took a while and some personnel changes but things got more stable not that the occasional flare ups happen and as none of us are perfect people we grind each others gears on occasion but are much more functional.

It's deciding whether dealing with this person is making you not want to continue or if you can still find enough enjoyment out of it to make with worth dealing with a hard to deal with person.

I think that everyone would agree that this guy was out of line in messing with the gig in the way he did. Playing a new club is an audition/interview for more work. Being the band means you suck it up and deal with it. When you get established and have a following, then you can start to make suggestions about smoking and such. It's been my experience that most club owners/managers don't care what you play or how well you play as long as people are in their club drinking (obviously the whats and how wells influence that a lot). Demanding a no-smoking environment at a bar is asking a lot if it's not already a rule or law there. I don't smoke cigarettes but have probably smoked a bazillion of them second-hand over the last 25 years but that is a cost of doing business in this game. Then getting pissed and walking out is unacceptable and unprofessional. I would talk about not airing disagreements either in front of club owners or the audience. Be an adult, wait till you have some privacy then let it go if it needs to happen.

Good luck!

[JonnyBoy]

It looks like if you are going to stay with this person you will have to sit down and hash out boundaries. You may or may not be better off with out him, depending on the bands ability, yours and your current popularity it may not be easy for you guys to replace talented players. If you can't, like any good marriage, you need boundaries and you HAVE TO stick to them. Otherwise someone will be burdened or offended.

I hear you Strummin', the back seat is not all that bad sometimes, especially if the car is truckin' in the right direction .

[Emoto]

Simple. Whoever books a gig is the only one to speak on behalf of the band with the venue.

I also agree with the idea that life is too short to spend it playing with jerks, or people not in control of their intoxicants.

[strumminsix]

Simple. Whoever books a gig is the only one to speak on behalf of the band with the venue.

I also agree with the idea that life is too short to spend it playing with jerks, or people not in control of their intoxicants.

I've known alot of musicians who can land a gig but don't know how to properly setup: promo, coordinate load in, work with the bar, act as a proper contact, partner with the soundguy.

I like bands with a solid leader who does what's good for the band. As the one who wears this hat in my main band I find it so much easier. I've had others land gigs and then come to be for: stage plot, soundman questions, etc

Plus it just looks more professional so when asked, "who do I talk to about..." folks don't think and guess or figure out who booked the gig or take a vote, they know.

[tcsned]

I would say, try to be tolerant of this person's need to have a structured set list and desire for concreteness. We all have different ways of approaching music and finding a way that everyone is comfortable with will help your shows be better. We do setlists sometimes to make sure we rotate tunes in that might be forgotten - not that we don't divert from a list at a whim.

The being disrespectful or unprofessional should be dealt with. If it isn't it is the same as rewarding that person for those actions. Plus, in the long run, it's unfair to that person as you will let shit build up until you explode when a frank conversation can set some boundaries and can get you the peace of mind you are looking for. Not that I am great at confronting folks and having frank conversations, I hate them but always feel much better after they happen. When it comes down to it, you need to be able to work with the people you play with if not it become un-fun really quick. If no solution can be found it may be time for you or him to move on if it's that intolerable to you.

[strawman]

Guys, thanks for all the input. I needed to vent, step back, and think about this situation a bit before I make any decision....which, I still haven't completely decided what to do. I will see Mark and co tommorow night and that will have some factor in my future with this group.

Have you considered just taking a back seat and only worry about playing? Having worn a few hats with bands I do sorta miss the no responsibility role at times.

Funny thing is, that is exactly what I do most of the time. Seems like everytime I'm in any position not "the back seat", I get thrown back there anyhow, even when I'm the one who knows the contact, etc. I can't begin to tell you how many times I have just gone with the flow or aquiesced to others in this band. Especially with two major type-A personalities to deal with.

I will say that I know one thing for sure--I will never book another gig for this band---which is a shame, because I do often find new ones because of playing different places with another band and tend to get out more than the others in general. I realize that expecting Mark to change his ways is just not gonna happen. So, assuming I stay, I'm just not going to put myself in any position that I get pissed off about later because he takes over. Maybe it's my issue, but it just makes me feel incompetent and it feels embarrassing to me when I'm the one who makes all the arrangements and then all of the sudden this control freak pops up and starts his shit with the person I booked with----this wasn't the first time it happened and I'm sure it would not be the last, unless I change what I do.

Hey Strawman sounds like a big hassle. What your band mate did re the non-smoking thing was really stupid and he needs his ass kicked. That sort of behavior undermines your effort and is not going to endear any band to a venue. It's generally best if only one band member deals with venues. It tends to get confusing otherwise.
The Dead is probably the most noteable exception to the rule but in my experience band democracies rarely work.

This guy is the way he is. No sense in me expecting him to be capable of doing something that he has clearly shown he cannot or will not do---and, for the record, kicking his ass seriously crossed my mind at the time. I was very close to getting violent with him. It's just not "me" though and I'm sure I wouldda been regreting it later.....but it would have felt good at the time I'm sure!

Anyway, I guess there's always something that gets in the way of everything being "just excatly perfect" and this band is no exception. Thanks again for the input guys.

[myoung6923]

Yeah - it's really hard when you have such personality conflicts within the band. You know - it's so hard to have it not affect the performance when you are blistering mad at the person standing next to you.

After a while it just takes all the fun out out of it and at the end of the day - that's what it's all about for most of it.

[glocke12]

Doesn't really sound like a very fun situation....To be honest Id either be looking to replace him, or to find another group of people to work with. Life is just too short for B.S.

A couple of years ago this guitar player I was jamming with gets really weird during a song we were playing, stops playing, and starts berating me using foul language about how I am playing the bass line wrong to some song (for the record I was playing it correctly)...This was right as the clock started ticking on studio space we were renting for four hours at 20 bucks an hour. Now I don't mind criticism delivered tactfully, but Im not going to stand there allow someone to get in my face like that so my reply was that if he wants it played a certain way than he can rent the bass thats at the front desk and play it however he likes it because Im leaving. With that I packed up and left....


As far as bookings go, the guy who books the gig is the guy that should be dealing with venue management.

[strawman]

Here's a crazy one for you--I was definitely planning to discuss matters with Mark tonight and he ended up in the hospital tonight due to chest pains before rehersal---he's fine and it's just precautionary--but I have to think this whole situation has something to do with it on some level--we practiced anyway, which was interesting sans bass player. He texted us during rehersal saying "stop talking and get back to work!" Hilarious I guess.

FWIW--others in the band told him how they felt about all this and let him know he had no business doing what he did. I'm hopeful he "heard" that from them and might be a bit more aware of some of his tendencies. I know I need to have a talk with him at some point though and get things aired out. I still believe an apology is in order.

Another crazy thing was that when we played that gig last Sat, it was actually pretty f'n good. I think all the tension/anger actually came through as transformed into some pretty sick and very interactive jams--not that I'd want that to be a habit, but, as much as I would have thought it would suck because of all that anger, it actually was a pretty good show for the most part.

All that said, I actually am hopeful he'll perhaps learn to relax in the long run. I'm gonna hang in there and see what happens for now.

I really appreciate all you RUKINDERS you know.....