When it doesn't fit anywhere else
 #90550  by Rusty the Scoob
 
This is all pretty abstract, not sure how to make a video of it. Words will have to do. :-?

Row Row Row Your Boat (RRRYB?) is a very specific type of counterpoint - it's a Round, or a very simple Fugue. A fugue is a piece of music where two or more instruments play the same melody but starting on different beats, so each one echoes the other. It takes some pretty careful composition for the various voices not to clash with each other. Trey used this technique a lot in his early years, the most notable example I can think of off the top of my head is "It's Ice" but there are a ton more, usually between him and Page or sometimes various vocal lines. Bach wrote a ton of them especially for pipe organs, usually in the form of a Toccata and Fugue, meaning a jaunty lighthearted opening movement followed by a big powerful fugue, where the organist would have three or more versions of the melody going and often underlying chords too, all juggled between his/her hands and feet. The highest line usually goes first and serves as the main melody (Jerry) followed by a middle voice (Bobby/Keith) and the bass voice or pedals (Phil). Often later the higher voices blend into a texture while the bass voice serves as a big melody underneath.

Ordinary counterpoint is similar in idea, the main difference being that the voices are playing different melodies rather than the same one. It's way easier to improvise, of course. Phil definitely had all this knowledge before the Dead formed and consciously used it to make himself sound different than other bass players.
strumminsix wrote: Phil talks about this in his book with an example, sorta like:
One guy is playing a line in 4, the other in 6, the other in 8 and the mega counterpoint resolution on 24.
He's describing a Hemiola there, more of a rhythmic device than straight-ahead counterpoint.
then there is the contrary motion (one goes up, one goes done) - like in the pre-solo progression in Morning Dew! My favorite Philism!
The one before the first solo? That's closer to a voice-leading kind of thing - again involving good old Bach. Before Bach, music was almost nothing but counterpoint, with only a few casual guidelines to make sure the voices didn't clash too much or run in parallel motion. It was Bach who reorganized music so that all voices served a harmonic purpose first and a melodic purpose second. In theory terms they call Bach's music Vertical meaning Harmonic and pre-Bach Horizontal or Linear meaning that all the voices were primarily Melodic.

Most rock bands are Vertical while the GD are primarily Linear. The passage you're describing is one of the few examples where they do something specifically Vertical and in a very Bach-like way. It could be a voice-leading exercise in any theory book.
 #90559  by Stevo123
 
Most rock bands are Vertical while the GD are primarily Linear.
So true. If anything distinguishes GD music, it is an almost complete refusal to play vertically. Even a lot of lead guitarists in rock music don't even play that linearly, so it is pretty unheard of to hear bass players and rhythm guitar players playing that way, lol.
 #90566  by Rusty the Scoob
 
Picture a music staff with a four-part choral piece on it - a linear/horizontal emphasis means that you're thinking about each part's individual melody first and the combined harmony second. Vertical emphasis means that you're thinking about the combined harmony first and the melodic line of each individual part second.
 #90571  by strumminsix
 
Thanks, Rusty! Not only did I you help me to better understand what I know (which is a nice launching point) but also new tools to explore. Thank you!
 #90575  by Rusty the Scoob
 
Glad I could help! The best part about being a bass player (besides rattling the foundation of buildings) is that you're involved in the whole band, so I've gotten to really study various forms of band dynamics. There really is no band before the Dead and very few since them who function musically in the same way that they did.
 #90588  by Mick
 
OK, I feel really strongly about this: Isn't "I Know You Rider" a "traditional" song? If so, then I think calling it a "cover tune" is inaccurate at best.

I think calling The Grateful Dead a "cover band" is idiotic too. They had more than enough material of their own to just stand up there show after show and play nothing but originals if that is what they wanted. Obviously, that's not what they wanted. I think it is great that they felt comfortable busting out tunes written by other artists, it made the shows deeper and more interesting along the way IMO. I also look at the artists they covered, like Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Johnny Cash, The Rolling Stones, Chuck Berry, and what jumps out at me is the importance of good writing. The songs they covered, like "Around and Around" are so well written that the GD could grab a hold of them decades after they were originally released and the boys could make them sound fresh. That's a tribute the writers AND the boys in the GD IMO.

Diversity had a lot to do with why I went to dozens of shows. Sure, they played originals, covers, traditional songs, 10 minute drum solos, and anything else they could think of, and on a good night, ALL of it worked. Sure, there were times where the boys had me completely lost in a jam, and then BAM! with one chord they brought me right back with a "Oh yeah, THAT'S where we were....", but moments like that to me were just icing on the cake. I think that anyone who thinks the GD were a "cover band", never really got it.
 #90590  by strumminsix
 
Mick wrote:OK, I feel really strongly about this: Isn't "I Know You Rider" a "traditional" song? If so, then I think calling it a "cover tune" is inaccurate at best.
Huh? Traditional means its author is not known. Hence, it's a cover song.
Mick wrote:I think calling The Grateful Dead a "cover band" is idiotic too. I think that anyone who thinks the GD were a "cover band", never really got it.
Who called them a cover band?!
 #90594  by JonnyBoy
 
I think the issue was billy knocking musicians that cover music when the dead did many covers themselves, plus his new band does too, but I agree they covered them in their own way, and they are originalI don't think anyone had a problem with the dead covering music, just billy's deal.
 #90599  by strumminsix
 
JonnyBoy wrote:I don't think anyone had a problem with the dead covering music
I actually had a problem with that. When most of Bobby's songs in a show were either old blues/R&B or Dylan. He shelved so many great songs for too long.
 #90627  by Mick
 
Who called them a cover band? Uh, how about this...
strumminsix wrote:I'd struggle call the GD an "original band". They included covers in every show they performed. For crying out loud "Me & My Uncle" was the #1 performed song. Even their albums had cover songs on it.

Cover songs with count:
Me And My Uncle 616
I Know You Rider 550
Not Fade Away 531
New Minglewood Blues 435
Good Lovin' 428
Promised Land 427
Around and Around 418
El Paso 388
Big River 397
Samson and Delilah 364
Turn On Your Love Light 341
Beat It On Down The Line 325
Don't Ease Me In 316
Mama Tried 302

Originals:
Sugar Magnolia 594
Other One, The Weir 583
Playing In The Band 582
China Cat Sunflower 554
Truckin' 519
Jack Straw 473
Deal Garcia 423
Looks Like Rain 417
Mexicali Blues 435
Tennessee Jed 433
A traditional song also means there is no copyright. So when playing a traditional song, you're not stepping on anyone else's gig.
 #90629  by tcsned
 
I don't think that just because there's no copyright it doesn't make a tune "original" to any artist that plays it. It simply means that no one knows who wrote it. GDTRFB is listed as trad, it certainly isn't a GD original. I don't think they would make that argument. They just don't have to pay fees to use it because some poor schmuck who had no idea their song was worth money back in the day didn't put his/her name on it. The Dead did their own thing with these tunes and in that sense they were being original within the confines of a cover tune. I think that strummin' is pointing out the difference between being original and playing an original tune.
 #90631  by JonnyBoy
 
Mick wrote:Who called them a cover band? Uh, how about this...
A traditional song also means there is no copyright. So when playing a traditional song, you're not stepping on anyone else's gig.
That being true, there is also the fact that many African American musicians lacked the funding, the rights and the help to get their rightful due on their music, (its amazing the resentment still alive over that fact within the AM musical community). That also goes for many immigrants and poor from many other nationalities. Many of the Southern country singers would snag blues songs and country fry them into their own, it was a common practice. Either way imo, if you didn't write it, its a cover, traditional or copyright aside, not knowing the confusing laws surrounding copyright protection doesn't negate that fact, imo. I don't think the Dead would argue that fact either... Plus a lot of the songs they played, that they didn't write, had known authors aside from not having copyrights. I think the term "cover" can be loaded with all kinds of meaning, negative and positive. To me it simply means you are not the author of the song and you are playing it in tribute to the author or culture. Some people hear cover and think of a band named KISSES that paint their faces like Kiss and only play their music just like they did, which is a different and extreme use of the term, which I agree the Dead was not doing with their covers.
 #90632  by strumminsix
 
Mick wrote:Who called them a cover band? Uh, how about this...
strumminsix wrote:I'd struggle call the GD an "original band". They included covers in every show they performed. For crying out loud "Me & My Uncle" was the #1 performed song. Even their albums had cover songs on it.

Cover songs with count:
Me And My Uncle 616
I Know You Rider 550
Not Fade Away 531
New Minglewood Blues 435
Good Lovin' 428
Promised Land 427
Around and Around 418
El Paso 388
Big River 397
Samson and Delilah 364
Turn On Your Love Light 341
Beat It On Down The Line 325
Don't Ease Me In 316
Mama Tried 302

Originals:
Sugar Magnolia 594
Other One, The Weir 583
Playing In The Band 582
China Cat Sunflower 554
Truckin' 519
Jack Straw 473
Deal Garcia 423
Looks Like Rain 417
Mexicali Blues 435
Tennessee Jed 433
A traditional song also means there is no copyright. So when playing a traditional song, you're not stepping on anyone else's gig.
Really, dude, really? I think you don't understand what original vs, cover means. I'll try again:
The GD did not write these traditional songs but played them, they are covers. Copyright has nothing to do with authoring.

I still don't see where I called them a cover band. Read again before turning into a hothead. I chose my words careful and you are choosing to misread them.
 #90634  by Mick
 
tcsned wrote:I don't think that just because there's no copyright it doesn't make a tune "original" to any artist that plays it.
No, I never said that. But a band that plays traditional folk tunes is a different animal to me than a band that covers Journey. Neither of them are "original" bands, but I can see the members of Journey feeling like the cover band is eating some of the food off of their plate, and not being too thrilled about it.
It simply means that no one knows who wrote it.
Some of the tunes we know who wrote them, but they are so old that their copyright protection has long run out. GDTRFB is traditional, and I believe Beat it on Down the Line is too. I believe the author of BIODTL is known, though I don't remember who off the top of my head. I can see an argument that tunes with known authors just being so old as to be in the public domain has little difference to the cover band, but since copyright protection now lasts for 70 years after the death of the last author, no one will really be around to care.
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