[paulinnc]

I agree with you for sure about the Hawk emblem. I like Tiger guitars and would love to have one but I can see whatyou are saying, that is why I opted tto build my own Wolf.

just a bit different take on this..
I have seen an actual doug Irwin guitar, I have met Doug and talked to him at length about the guitars.
I have seen and played the alembics and several others along the way.
I am a bass player and not a guitarist.

My take on it. If somebody is thinking seriously about a JG/ Irwin-ish guitar. The Tiger/ Rosebud/ etc instantly pigeon holes you into being a Jerry Clone. You can't show up to anything but a dead jam and be taken as anything other than a Jerry wannabe.

On the other hand... The wolf is not so radically different from everything else out there. It could be perceived as going a lot of different ways. You could show up to any number of types of music and be appreciated.

But, looking at the few makers' sites posted. I am really dumbfounded that any of these makers would actually go so far as to put the DI hawk on headstock. To me that is way over the line and really not cool.

[tcsned]

seanc - I don't think I made my point as well as I could have. I am certainly in agreement with you that the Irwin logo is intellectual property and should be respected. Being in the Dead/Deadhead community has lead to a pretty lax attitude towards intellectual property for good or ill. It's easy to forget that. Just because the band was pretty lax about it doesn't mean those who built instruments for them have the same attitude.

What I was trying to say is that this shape, while built for Jerry, I doubt if Doug or Thomas intended that body shape to be on only one person's guitar. I might be mistaken but I believe Thomas Lieber said that they intended to use that shape for a line of electrics much like what Gibson did with the Les Paul. I do also know that guitars tend to be associated with the most famous or currently famous person playing that guitar. I was running a music store in the middle of Dave Matthews hey day and sold tons more Chet Atkins solidbody acoustics because of that than we would have if he had played a Takamine. Though ironic that a guitar bearing the name of Chet Atkins was, at least for a while, known as a "Dave Matthews guitar." If someone new came along and played an Irwin shaped like Jerry's, got famous, and became a guitar hero - the Garcia shape would start to be associated with that person. Just like a guitar named for a 40-50s pop/jazz guitar player is probably as associated with Jimmy Page (who played a Telecaster on most of their early recordings) as with the guitar's namesake. To many people the words Les Paul correlates to a single cutaway, maple, mahogany guitar not a human being that was a pioneer in music and music technology.

I also know that some in the music business have disdain for the Grateful Dead - I remember the Clash saying something about the Dead following them at the Montego Bay show. Billy Jo Armstrong joked on Bill Maher's show that he should've played Grateful Dead in his house so his kid would rebel and play punk rock. But I don't think it's as intense as you seem to be implying. Playing in a band is different for sure. If you go to play with a metal band and go off on a 15 minute intuitive improvisation over an A / / / | G / / / : || chord progression they're gonna get pissed. If you play what's appropriate for the tune I don't think that the guitar you play it on is gonna matter that much. Granted, most people who own those guitars play Jerry style music of some sort or another. I wouldn't own one otherwise I'm sure.

So, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you I just haven't had that experience. I didn't mean to imply that I think I'm all that and a bag of chips as a guitar player either. There's lots better on this board. I just like a lot of types of music and though the GD will always be my favorite, I would go crazy if that's all I played. Just like I would go crazy if all I played was bluegrass or swing. I think everyone should follow the path that makes them happy as long as they respect trademark and copyright laws.

[sants]

Damn guys! I'm glad I didn't put in an order with Moriarty yet as I am still on the fence about what I really wanted to do. This thread may have helped! I was thinking about going with a wolf without the wolf inlay or having Matt just do his thing with his own design. I think I might let Matt do his thing because as of right now I don't play enough Dead!

Some of the comments remind me of some metal band I saw a few years back (not by choice, just at friends show with multiple bands). This band took all this time to set up, Marshall stacks, BC Rich to the fullest, and the biggest drum kit you have ever seen with double kicks and all. You would have thought they were Iron maiden! They sure looked the part but man it was a let down when they played. People were left shaking their heads. I felt bad for these guys but at least they were trying and having fun.

That is my fear with a Jerry clone. I am a half decent player but I don't want people saying "look at this f-ing guy, thinks he's Jerry but just trying to pose with that guitar. I do love the wolf whether Jerry played it or not but the thought of being pigeon-holed has always been in the back of my mind.

We all started playing or wanting certain guitars for a reason. because our hero's played them. Every kid who hears SRV or hendrix must have a strat, and those who like slash must have a Les Pau and a marshall. Those guitars are just so mainstream that it is harder for someone to say they belong to a certain style or you are trying to be someone else. The problem is Jerry made Irwin style guitars what they are and it is a niche market. I think it is really cool to see people playing jerry style guitars however, others may not. If you are in a dead cover band I think it is even better! If not, going with a variation of your favorite Irwin guitar might be best.

[jkstraw]

That is my fear with a Jerry clone. I am a half decent player but I don't want people saying "look at this f-ing guy, thinks he's Jerry but just trying to pose with that guitar. I do love the wolf whether Jerry played it or not but the thought of being pigeon-holed has always been in the back of my mind.

Wow man as a guy who waited over three years for a Tiger clone (sans eagle inlay) and is less than a decent player - I feel bad for you and the others on this thread that care so much about what others think. FWIW I hope you do what YOU want - settling for anything else would be a shame.

[JonnyBoy]

. It's just a really cool guitar shape and different than every other Strat and LP clone out there and not something that looks like a UFO or something that could double as a medieval torture device.

Ha! I thought that was real funny TCSNED

I am speculating here, and I don't know Thomas or Doug personally, but they seem to have have never griped about the emblem used or guitar copying. They have been a part of conversations here, at least Thomas, about tribute guitars and has only been helpful to those trying to build one. Plus, It is obvious to them and others which is their work(or garcia's guitars) and which are copies. Some of the guys that make these guitars are their close friends, and most are considered family. Copy makers aren't trying to start mega corporations around this intellectual property, just paying tribute to it like the monet copy hanging in your hall bathroom.
BUT IF Doug and Thomas have a problem with it, which as cool as they are I doubt they do, People should stop doing it out of respect and let the Chinese find a way to get around it as usual. DI's company is no longer in business and he is a retired gun for hire that would take over a 100K to get off the couch these days. You do make a good point, but if the artist doesn't mind or finds it flattering that their work is copied so heavily, we should be too.
I do know the day I have a custom guitar made like Garcia's I will be calling Thomas, I like his work and I know it will be playable, since Jerry's were.

[Rusty the Scoob]

I guess I see the Eagle logo as a tip of the cap to Irwin and Lieber as designers, not just builders. If they were still in business selling a high volume of guitars together like Martin or Fender or Gibson, that would be different.

[tcsned]

I agree with jstraw - get the guitar that is going to make you happy. Don't worry what others think. Let them get their own guitars.

[sants]

That is my fear with a Jerry clone. I am a half decent player but I don't want people saying "look at this f-ing guy, thinks he's Jerry but just trying to pose with that guitar. I do love the wolf whether Jerry played it or not but the thought of being pigeon-holed has always been in the back of my mind.

Wow man as a guy who waited over three years for a Tiger clone (sans eagle inlay) and is less than a decent player - I feel bad for you and the others on this thread that care so much about what others think. FWIW I hope you do what YOU want - settling for anything else would be a shame.

You are totally right! People should get what they want and not worry about what others think. That is why my initial choice would be a wolf without the wolf inlay.

The other guitar player in my band made a dumb comment when I told him I wanted one. He said "people will think you are trying to be Jerry." I just said at least I'm not trying to be another SRV clone and the only reason you play a strat is because you idolize Stevie Ray Vaughan! He kind of just shut up after that!

I just don't want to go Wolf in every detail solely because I only play a few Dead songs with the band I'm in now.

[seanc]

Ultimately, I agree 100% with the sentiment that you should get whatever guitar YOU want and that you will be happy with. If you have your own personal grail guitar and it keeps you practicing, listening, and getting better that is what it is all about.

Will having a Tiger a wolf or a Travis bean make you play a certain way? Probably not. And if having a Top Hat guitar made a person play like JG, I'd have bought the first Cripes I could have got my hands on regardless of cost.

Let's turn it around a bit.. I go to audition for a country band.. "Billy Bob and the Sh*t Kickers".. I show up with my Buzzard bass, a GK amp rig and a distortion pedal. Before I even hit the first note of the first song. I have already made an impression on the band. The pedal steel player is already not happy. The piano player notices the Steel player's mood and it effects him as well. I play through the songs and nail them. I leave.

I go to my car, put on my disguise of a cowboy hat and flannel shirt, I shlep a beat up P-bass (with the same electronics as the buzzard) the same GK rig and tell them the distortion pedal does an amazing job on "ghost riders". Play all the songs the same way as before. They are happy as pigs in a pen and hire me on the spot.

Your gear, while it may not your playing, has a radical impact on how people will perceive you. Out side of a dead band you might find a Tiger guitar to be a 13lb albatross around your neck that you pay a real lot of money for...

[tcsned]

I do hear your point seanc - though my experience, while anecdotal has not been like that. I did sit in with a country band with my WGD in Princeton, WV after their guitar player unexpectedly quit. None of the folks in the band said anything about the guitar - I knew the steel guitar player and he has sat in with my Dead band a couple of times. But the rest were West "By God" Virginians - the bass player was a sheriff's deputy so no dope smokin' hippies in that group. None of the several hundred line dancin' toothless yahoos in the crowd said anything . . . other than "do you know any Randy Travis?" Mine isn't anywhere close to an exact replica and is just shaped like the Garcia guitar so that might have something to do with it. Of course Deputy Fife got kinda pissed when his wife, the singer gave me an innocent hug after the show. They asked me to join their band a few weeks later though grad school, managing a music store, and three bands was enough for me

[seanc]

TC.. I have been on the "seeing what the others are saying" quite a bit. I worked in music stores in both Providence and Boston. In Prov, the guitar player I was playing with had a "jerry guitar" he'd generally bring it into the store and put it on a stand for the down time.. The reactions were mixed. Most would look at it and say "oh, a Jerry Garcia guitar", roll their eyes and walk away. Others would look at it and make a comment about smelling patchouli, feet and unwashed hippies. Some (fewer than the majority) would think it was "ok or kind of cool".

When I was working in boston. The dead were in town. Bobby's roadie/ guitar tech came in. The disdain for him by the employees was evident. . Of course, I did step in and did my best to help. Great guy a lot of interesting stories and info, I sold him a ton of gear, made some money. But still was never able to squeeze any tix out of him.

All I can say is that in my experience, there is a huge amount for disdain for all things dead. Spending 5k+ on a guitar is (at least to me) a huge deal. if that buyer intends to play and be well received in quite a few different types of music circles it is something that they really should consider and be aware of on the front end.

[Tennessee Jedi]

When I was working in boston. The dead were in town. Bobby's roadie/ guitar tech came in. The disdain for him by the employees was evident. .

Wow - If I was the owner I would be pissed. Rock star sends his roadie to the store to buy shit and the employees look down their noses at him ?????????

Seriously - thats the STORES prob not the tech's.

[Rusty the Scoob]

Phew! Good thing I don't choose my gear to impress music-store personnel.

[tcsned]

TC.. I have been on the "seeing what the others are saying" quite a bit. I worked in music stores in both Providence and Boston. In Prov, the guitar player I was playing with had a "jerry guitar" he'd generally bring it into the store and put it on a stand for the down time.. The reactions were mixed. Most would look at it and say "oh, a Jerry Garcia guitar", roll their eyes and walk away. Others would look at it and make a comment about smelling patchouli, feet and unwashed hippies. Some (fewer than the majority) would think it was "ok or kind of cool".

When I was working in boston. The dead were in town. Bobby's roadie/ guitar tech came in. The disdain for him by the employees was evident. . Of course, I did step in and did my best to help. Great guy a lot of interesting stories and info, I sold him a ton of gear, made some money. But still was never able to squeeze any tix out of him.

All I can say is that in my experience, there is a huge amount for disdain for all things dead. Spending 5k+ on a guitar is (at least to me) a huge deal. if that buyer intends to play and be well received in quite a few different types of music circles it is something that they really should consider and be aware of on the front end.

Like I said, my experience is only anecdotal - maybe there's a regional thing going on too. Here in Appalachia folks, while they can be incredibly closed minded about some things never seem to treat hippies/Deadheads that bad - unless you get pulled over by the state police with a funny smell emanating from your car. The Dead only played in this area once in Roanoke so the fact that they hadn't experienced the GD scene also might have something to do with it. There was a lot of excitement in the bluegrass community when Jerry supposedly registered to compete at the Galax Fiddler's Convention in '95 (can't confirm that this actually happened). I do get some sideways looks from the traditionalists when I play bluegrass on my gypsy jazz guitar . . . until they hear it cut through over a banjo

I used to leave my WGD out in the music store all the time and never had anyone say anything negative (at least to my face). Actually helped make some cool connections. Byron House was in town playing w/Sam Bush and stopped into the store and saw my guitar. He asked who's it was (I was teaching a lesson at the time). He said. "well, go get him!" We spent the whole afternoon playing Dead tunes in the shop and again after his show in town. He apparently plays in some Dead band in Nashville or at least used to. It was great for my 6 degrees of separation from a lot of cool people - Loretta Lynn, Emmylou, Dolly Parton, Dixie Chicks, Little Feat, SRV, etc. I also got into a cool conversation with Blues Traveller's bassist after he saw it. John Popper was in the store too but I didn't recognize him as he had lost a bunch of weight.

That's awful that those folks at your store treated Wier's roadie like that. They were lucky I wasn't their manager or they would have been polishing their resumes. No matter who it was - that's just stupid.

[JonnyBoy]

It is amazing to me as artists here (professional and recreational) we have any real hang ups at all about the paint brushes we use. I guess we all care to some degree how cool we are or perceptions of others, but damn. Tiger sold for more money than any other guitar at the time. His other one taking up the rear. I know this isn't exact science, but if the guitars were worth that, it would have to mean an assumed demand/public value is high or desirable. If you can play it well that is what will stick in their minds anyway. I quote Cheryl Crow, "If it makes you happyyyyyy, it can't be that baaaaaa-aa-ad"

PS. this is the only place where I post my rig and people don't say, "WTF???" "Why? That's just over the top!" "I gotta take a picture of this, Jimmy come 'er and look at this boy's rig, he says its like Jerry Rodreguez!" .....then... "Well it sounds awesome though...."