[Mandoborg]

I've finally had the chance to sit down and get myself up to date here after the great flood we had here in New England !! Lots of posts to catch up on and this one caught my eye. Being a guitar builder i myself would have never let some of the things on Tiger go out the door, but that's not saying anything......it was the 70's, a differant time, like Jon said, competition for this style of guitar wasn't all that great. By todays standards it's a lot easier to attain higher quality from builders.

Without sounding like a d**k, and i sure hope it doesn't come across that way, but Tom Liebers Leo fender quote made me chuckle. Tom Lieber and Doug Irwin combined wouldn't stack up to Leo Fender. I mean NO disrespect to either, both very talented artists, but not Leo Fender by any stretch of the imagination.

As a builder, $32,000 is too much money for a guitar. Vintage yes, celebrity owned, yes, custom new guitar for Joe Blow, no way, TONS of talent out there that you don't need to pay for a 'link' to Jerry's guitars.

$100,000 for an Irwin is just laughable. I've heard WAY more horror stories about Dougs business practices to even consider something like that. Invest in the stock market, you might make money, you might not. Trying to get an Irwin guitar, well, you might get your guitar, you might not...... and who in there right mind would consider having a guitar built by someone that's not into building anyway ???


Geesh, i hope this note doesn't come across the wrong way.......... my shop is plastered with pictures of all of Irwins guitars, Doug himself, and i think Tom's building great guitars and is talented to the hilt, not to mention he's shared so much vital information about Jerry and Doug. It just seems people are losing a little perspective as to what a guitar really is, wood and wire, and what a NEW guitar is actually worth...

[Utah Joe]

Without sounding like a d**k, and i sure hope it doesn't come across that way, but Tom Liebers Leo fender quote made me chuckle.

Well, you made a valient effort and for that I commend you.

Look, we all know that guitars range widely in price and quality and you generally get what you pay for. Years ago (26, to be exact) I met Paul Reed Smith when he was building guitars by hand in a small shop in Annapolis, MD. I could have purchased a custom guitar built by the man himself but $2,000 seemed like an astronomical sum, especially compared to what new Gibsons were going for at the time. In retrospect was the price so outrageous? Of course not. Hind sight is 20/20. The fact is that it was much more than I could afford so I had to set my sights a little lower.

My financial situation has now improved to the point where I am ready to purchase an investment grade guitar so I recently contacted Tom Leiber to commission something that's not on his usual menu (I'll post pics once the project gets underway). The price he quoted was less than a new Alembic and for that I'll get exactly what I want, right down to the wood, inlay, electronics, and gold plated hardware. Yes, $32,000 for The Garcia seems like a lot to pay especially when Moriarty, Michas, and Resurrection versions are available at a fraction of the price. The difference is that Tom helped to design Tiger, and since Doug Irwin is for all intents and purposes retired Tom is the only game in town if you want an instrument that carries some history with it. I don't imagine that I'll ever sell my Lieber but I suspect that over time it will appreciate in value more than guitars built by comparable luthiers.

[Rusty the Scoob]

Welcome, Utah Joe! I'd love to hear more details about your upcoming Lieber build if you don't mind!

[keirweir]

Welcome, Utah Joe! I'd love to hear more details about your upcoming Lieber build if you don't mind!

I'll second that notion

[Thomas Lieber]

A no vote here to pressure Utah Joe , it is not fair to ask a client to divulge his personal specifications until the instrument is near completion. So, I vote for patience on this one!


Earlier on in this thread I mentioned that I do not feel disrespected on any level and do not take offence of others options. All are entitled.



I do want to address the perception that I was comparing myself and or Doug to Leo,
Leo first of all was an electronics guy not a Luthier. When he began inventing things for the musical instrument industry around 1944, Rickenbacker had been building for 10 years prior. Leo’s main guy came directly from Rickenbacker. http://www.freeinfosociety.com/site.php?postnum=808

Leo Fender was the individual who designed and conceived the most successful production line of electric stringed instruments, no doubt.

Orville Gibson on the other hand was actually a monster Luthier http://www.siminoff.net/pages/gibson_background.html

Anyway the point I was trying to convey by that statement was that if today you had the opportunity to contract Ted McCarty http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/mccarty.html
to build his designs produced for Gibson, could you place a price on it. So, realistic or not Doug has the right to put a price on what it would take for him to produce an instrument. Is he pricing himself from opportunity for new build projects, yes. Now am I pricing the “Garcia Tiger” out of the same build opportunity, yes. And that is the point; I will not personally build very many “Garcia Tigers” in my lifetime. And if I do it has to be of tangible value to both myself and the client. And having designed the ornamental body shape for that instrument , I would say is a bit more then a link.

On to some fun, here is a picture of the low end Irwins we built a couple of. They sold in 1974 for $800.00. Our neck thru guitars and basses sold from $1200 to $2200. We didn’t have all the extra cost that Alembic had on the electronics end, our neck thru were slightly higher quality then Alembic's at that time. This included the wood selection cuts. More often then not our instruments had a higher grade back to them then the tops of most instruments being produced from 74 to 77. I have the pictures up of the Sears project, cheak out the Birdseye Maple back! http://www.lieberguitars.com/basses/pete-sears-project/

[strumminsix]

I've always had a high respect for Leo. I recall an article where he discussed making affordable guitars.
Something hit home on that. A man whose career ambition was a guitar for every guitarist vs. rich!!!

[Mandoborg]

Tom, THANK YOU very much for not taking offense to my note above . It's sometimes amazingly difficult to communicate what your trying to say on the internet because it's only words and people can put there own inflection on it. I read and re-read that letter several times before posting hoping that i got across my point without stepping on anybodies toes or disresepcting anyone, especially Doug or yourself.

[tcsned]

+1 strumminsix - Leo was a man to be admired and he helped develop a guitar that changed music history and one that was affordable and a great instrument to boot.

That is not to say that I am not a fan of nice wood and great craftsmanship too.

Great stuff Thomas. Great attitude too.

[Rusty the Scoob]

I've always had a high respect for Leo. I recall an article where he discussed making affordable guitars.
Something hit home on that. A man whose career ambition was a guitar for every guitarist vs. rich!!!

To be fair, he probably also designed them to be affordable at least partly because he wanted to sell a whole lot of them and make money.

[strumminsix]

I've always had a high respect for Leo. I recall an article where he discussed making affordable guitars.
Something hit home on that. A man whose career ambition was a guitar for every guitarist vs. rich!!!

To be fair, he probably also designed them to be affordable at least partly because he wanted to sell a whole lot of them and make money.

Oh indeed. From the tone of the article I'm thinking of he didn't come across like he wanted to be a bazillionaire.
But, yes, enough to have it be his career was definately another take-away! However, reading about his 13 million dollar sale to CBS...

[JonnyBoy]

Thomas, Why did Doug Quote $850 for one of his guitars when they (jerry) first met? Was he pricing it at cost for the favor of having Jerry play one of his own? I assumed that was a going price and that Jerry picked a nice one. I am assuming that was the case now that you stated the going prices back then.


When I wrote that devil's advocate thread about the "Quality of Rose Bud" I realized you and Alembic were breaking new ground with ornamental sandwiched hard wood guitars. I am sure now he won't try to run "Binding like" line through the neck set on his future guitars, live and learn, OR maybe that's his personality, take the risk. I further realized perfection has been reached in today's time building from the trials and errors of the past, and conservative building is preferred over risk taking to produce IMO a sort of sterile perfection. Something Jerry never embraced in his music. Its almost fitting he tried to pull of something hard and fell a little short, like Jerry did many times. Its like baseball cards,money, books with flaws being worth more, they had a human quality to them. In that situation A line being off I can understand, It happens to me in projects and it will make you cry when your idea is a 1/32" off due to mother natures forces. I felt bound to support his intent. It may have worked fine for tiger, but rosebud it snagged, maybe?. And maybe he realized it so close to finish is too far to start over and maybe even told Jerry about it. You and Irwin were trying to do some hard carpentry frills and details that had risks involved, especially with TIGER, but in no way did flaws affect the playability, It sounded great to me. We sometimes forget we are human. Like I don't want a bar owner to say you're a horrible musician because you missed a note, Its harsh to say Irwin and yourself fell short of worthy builds. But, for 100K he better get them straight or have a easy going customer!!

Peace brother, may success and happiness find its way to you, it seems like it has. - Jboy PS: thanks for the gifts (stickers)

[Utah Joe]

Hey Tom, thanks for the advice. It is tempting to post the ideas we discussed but I'll keep things under wraps for now. I'll contact you via email shortly.

Rusty the Scoob and Keirweir: thanks for your interest but please bear with me for a bit. Once the project gets under way I'll start a new thread and post pictures as the work progresses. You will not be disappointed.

[Rusty the Scoob]

Fair enough! No pressure was intended. I go back and forth between wanting to talk about my builds and wanting to keep them under wraps myself. Welcome to the board!