[jeffm725]

Oh and By the way, I am about to commit heresy, but if I were to be able to have a band and my choice of bass player was Phil Lesh or John Kahn, I would take Kahn without hesitation.(I'm dead serious)
He could Jam but he also had a nice fat walking pocket. The perfect foil for Jerry in that setting when you are talking 4 piece. Replace John with Phil in that band and it loses its swing. (not saying Phil cant swing, he's just swings differently).

Just my opinion, based on my personal taste in music.

By the way since we are talking bass, anyone familiar with Rob Stoner's work in the Rolling Thunder Review? (Dylans 75-76 band)
That is some of my personally favorite bass playing by anyone EVER. He makes every song just COOK!

Just to round this out, my 3rd favorite bass player is Rick Danko, and probably my favorite all time single performance by a bass player on a song is Danko's bass part in Joni Mitchell's Coyote, from the Last Waltz..................absolutely stunning!

[strumminsix]

Oh and By the way, I am about to commit heresy, but if I were to be able to have a band and my choice of bass player was Phil Lesh or John Kahn, I would take Kahn without hesitation.(I'm dead serious)

+1 I've worked with bass players in the past and flat out said, "you need to be in the pocket more like Kahn and not that wandering shit like Phil. It only worked for the GD".

[tigerstrat]

That Fender Bass head on top of the MAC is absolutely big enough to have the power section in there. That is a pretty standard sized Fender Head cabinet from that era.

+1, it could easily be mistaken for a (non-reverb) Dual Showman or Bandmaster

[Rusty the Scoob]

Oh and By the way, I am about to commit heresy, but if I were to be able to have a band and my choice of bass player was Phil Lesh or John Kahn, I would take Kahn without hesitation.(I'm dead serious)

+1 I've worked with bass players in the past and flat out said, "you need to be in the pocket more like Kahn and not that wandering shit like Phil. It only worked for the GD".

I'll agree with that. The Phil approach only really works with bands that are very GD based. Kahn wandered in his own way as well though, enough to keep it interesting.

[Rusty the Scoob]

That Fender Bass head on top of the MAC is absolutely big enough to have the power section in there. That is a pretty standard sized Fender Head cabinet from that era.

+1, it could easily be mistaken for a (non-reverb) Dual Showman or Bandmaster

Ok. Must be the Mac that makes it look small. Or tall, skinny John himself.

[Rusty the Scoob]

Oh and By the way, I am about to commit heresy, but if I were to be able to have a band and my choice of bass player was Phil Lesh or John Kahn, I would take Kahn without hesitation.(I'm dead serious)
He could Jam but he also had a nice fat walking pocket. The perfect foil for Jerry in that setting when you are talking 4 piece. Replace John with Phil in that band and it loses its swing. (not saying Phil cant swing, he's just swings differently).

Just my opinion, based on my personal taste in music.

By the way since we are talking bass, anyone familiar with Rob Stoner's work in the Rolling Thunder Review? (Dylans 75-76 band)
That is some of my personally favorite bass playing by anyone EVER. He makes every song just COOK!

Just to round this out, my 3rd favorite bass player is Rick Danko, and probably my favorite all time single performance by a bass player on a song is Danko's bass part in Joni Mitchell's Coyote, from the Last Waltz..................absolutely stunning!

Now here I have to disagree. I love Rick Danko and the Band but that Coyote pales in comparison to the original Jaco version from Hejira. Also check out Shadows and Light http://www.amazon.com/Joni-Mitchell-Sha ... 945&sr=1-1 - it's a live concert somewhere in CA with Joni backed up by Pat Metheny, Jaco, Lyle Mays, Michael Brecker, and Don Elias (I think Amazon is wrong when they call him Don Alias), a group of fusion monsters from when fusion was still good music.

I hear The Band struggling to keep up with Joni on that tune, but they don't have the rhythmic or harmonic chops. They're all really stiff, too, totally looking to her instead of just jamming and having fun like the rest of the show. It's still fun to listen to but doesn't transport me to that far away place like the original.

[tigerstrat]

Just to round this out, my 3rd favorite bass player is Rick Danko, and probably my favorite all time single performance by a bass player on a song is Danko's bass part in Joni Mitchell's Coyote, from the Last Waltz..................absolutely stunning!

Now here I have to disagree. I love Rick Danko and the Band but that Coyote pales in comparison to the original Jaco version from Hejira. Also check out Shadows and Light http://www.amazon.com/Joni-Mitchell-Sha ... 945&sr=1-1 - it's a live concert somewhere in CA with Joni backed up by Pat Metheny, Jaco, Lyle Mays, Michael Brecker, and Don Elias (I think Amazon is wrong when they call him Don Alias), a group of fusion monsters from when fusion was still good music.

I hear The Band struggling to keep up with Joni on that tune, but they don't have the rhythmic or harmonic chops. They're all really stiff, too, totally looking to her instead of just jamming and having fun like the rest of the show. It's still fun to listen to but doesn't transport me to that far away place like the original.

Gotta +1 w/ Scoob on this. I have to say though that his best work (some of his most brilliant ever imho) with Joni was on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, esp the songs "Talk To Me" and "Cotton Avenue".

[FretWilkes]

Gotta +1 w/ Scoob on this. I have to say though that his best work (some of his most brilliant ever imho) with Joni was on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, esp the songs "Talk To Me" and "Cotton Avenue".

I really like the Last Waltz version. It is heavily overdubbed on Danko's part though. After watching this film for the thousandth time you start to notice overdubs all over the place. I, like Jeffm725, think it has a great feel.

The LW is still a GREAT film too. I love it and watch it often.

I forget who said it or if I read it, but someone said that Jaco Pastorius single handidly ruined many potentially great young bass players of the era. Victor Wooten may fall into this catagory as well. The young kids really love his style, but it is unobtainable for most humans. They just tend to play to play WAY to much in an effort to approximate the Pastorius / Wooten genius.

Oh and by the way...LOVE John Kahns bass playing. I hated it when he move to the little headless bass (hated the bass that is). He was the perfect musical match for Jerry.

[strumminsix]

Oh and By the way, I am about to commit heresy, but if I were to be able to have a band and my choice of bass player was Phil Lesh or John Kahn, I would take Kahn without hesitation.(I'm dead serious)

+1 I've worked with bass players in the past and flat out said, "you need to be in the pocket more like Kahn and not that wandering shit like Phil. It only worked for the GD".

I'll agree with that. The Phil approach only really works with bands that are very GD based. Kahn wandered in his own way as well though, enough to keep it interesting.

VERY GD indeed! IMO if you are gonna copy Phil's style exactly your band needs:
- 2 full-time drummers so the mix never sounds odd (lean backbeat, no bass on kick, etc)
- keyboardist with a strong left hand so that the beats are properly accented with the 1/5 while Phil is off wandering elsewhere

I hear too many GD tribute bands where their bassist is "in the Phil zone, man!" and despite them doing what Phil does, it's not what that band needs. It needs John Kahn, dammit

[Harvestwind]

As a bass player myself I have a lot of respect for Phil, but my own playing style is more structrured and more minimalist. I rarely see bands that have a "lead playing" bass player that sound any good. I think Phil can pull it off because he has two guitarists and a keyboard player (and often two drummers) but in most lineups the band would lack a solid grounding.

Interestingly, the only time I saw Phil play was with his own band at the Warfield in 2006, and I thought his playing was more 'in the pocket' that night than I've heard on various Dead recordings. His style works fine in the jams but It actually bugs me when he goes all over the place on a traditional blues tune like the early Pigpen numbers.

[tigerstrat]

I hear too many GD tribute bands where their bassist is "in the Phil zone, man!" and despite them doing what Phil does, it's not what that band needs. It needs John Kahn, dammit

Funny, I hear far too many GD tributes (including at least one Very Well-Known one) where the bassist stays too much in the pocket and doesn't challenge the other players enough for my taste.

[strumminsix]

I hear too many GD tribute bands where their bassist is "in the Phil zone, man!" and despite them doing what Phil does, it's not what that band needs. It needs John Kahn, dammit

Funny, I hear far too many GD tributes (including at least one Very Well-Known one) where the bassist stays too much in the pocket and doesn't challenge the other players enough for my taste.

I can both hear that and see that.

Isn't it odd that sometimes GD bands sound tighter when their respective Phil is in the pocket while conversely they sound less GDish?!

[astroman99]

Love em all, but to that list I would add the bass player who is a premier pocket, and walker
that would be the incomparable Joey Spampinato form NRBQ,
none better at what he does.

[Rusty the Scoob]

I hear too many GD tribute bands where their bassist is "in the Phil zone, man!" and despite them doing what Phil does, it's not what that band needs. It needs John Kahn, dammit

Funny, I hear far too many GD tributes (including at least one Very Well-Known one) where the bassist stays too much in the pocket and doesn't challenge the other players enough for my taste.

I can both hear that and see that.

Isn't it odd that sometimes GD bands sound tighter when their respective Phil is in the pocket while conversely they sound less GDish?!

I don't think that's odd, because the GD didn't sound tight IMHO. Tight to me is a good funk band, or a slick Vegas show, or the Rockettes. The Dead to me were Loose. It's not the same thing as sloppy, it's more like they all had the freedom to stretch or rush time a little (except Billy) if it suited the song at hand, and they were all good enough musicians and listeners to make up their own minds about whether to stay on the beat or follow.



I totally agree with TS... too many Deadhead bassists including the one mentioned play way too Safe. Phil's mind is always active - his fingers move slowly but his mind moves a million miles an hour. As a tribute bassist it's important to choose your style based on the song. In a nutshell my Philosophy (groan... pun is purely accidental) is:


Pigpen tunes: Groove and jam on minor pentatonics. Use a very warm, meaty, slightly overdriven tone if possible.

70's Jerry tunes: full meandering Phil mode. Weave your countermelodies but be careful to hit chord tones early in the song and strongly suggest them once the song is fully established. You're the most important thing in the band besides Jerry himself.

Bobby tunes: turn down relative to the band and play a lot more conventionally. stay out of the way. (except Estimated of course)

80's/90's tunes: play an active role but hit the downbeats in the pocket and sound a little bored. Bombs change from frequent, gritty double-stops to occasional clear, loud single low notes. Scoop your mids and boost your very high range if possible. (like 5kHz plus - it adds pick attack and definition without muddying up the mix. This is why modern bass amps have tweeters.)

Always be unpredictable, but always also honor the song.

[ugly rumor]

Couple of things...

The bass amp in the John Kahn photo is a later model (post '75) Fender Bassman, with the knob to the far left being a master.

Phil's playing...is GREAT!!! His approach to the song is a masterful interpretation of presentation. It is also based on the moment, so even if he doesn't necessarily conform to anyone else's idea of where he should be, he is where he is feeling it at that particular moment. That is the essence of avant-garde music, which is Phil's training and love. That is why he never has a bad night...he is always being true to his immediate interpretation. For an example of this, listen to Stockhausen, or for an extreme example (sometimes things are made more obvious at the extreme end of the spectrum), listen to the recording by John Cage of "Four Walls". If unavailable, find any of the avant-garde music of the fifties, and absorb it until you understand. It is a very freeing realization of music, and transforms it from a "monkey-see, monkey-do" exercise to a vibrant, alive, and free form of music. This will offend many note-for-note enthusiasts, and as a bass player with 35 years experience, I have found very few, including Dead cover bands, musicians who understand this. And I have offended drummers and guitarists in my time. But that is why the Dead were so good. Especially in the early 70's, or when that great keyboardist, Keith Godchaux, could stay awake.

John Kahn was a great bass player, along the lines of John Heard, Charlie Mingus, etc. But his limited approach kept him more in the pocket. Not bad, but much more traditional.

Had more to say, but got to go. Think this over. It may change your whole approach and make music...
FUN AGAIN!!!!