[d-v-s]

Hey guys, i found a friend at work who's learning to play the sax - the first person I've met here in Turkey that's showed an interest in playing music. He wants to play together sometime, but he only knows a few jazz songs. The one he wants to work on is Autumn Leaves. I found some basic info on this, but I've never really played any jazz-type guitar. Any RUkind'ers play this song, or any jazz for that matter that might be able to help me put something together for this?

here's the progression I found for autumn leaves:

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Am7  D7  Gmaj7  Cmaj7  F#m7b5  B7  Em
Am7  D7  Gmaj7  Cmaj7  F#m7b5  B7  Em

F#m7b5  B7b9  Em  Am7  D7  Gmaj7
F#m7b5  B7b9  Em Eb7 Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7 B7b9 Em

All those 7ths are a bit intimidating, especially that F#m7b5!! Any tricks or tips to playing a progression like this? special positions, etc.

I also recommended Take Five, as another piece we could play. Anybody know what the original key was for this. I saw somewhere that SCI played it in Em, but i think the original was Ebm.

[Tennessee Jedi]

Maybe you can learn smaller versions of the chords
- maybe only play on the the 3 interior strings;that might work good with the sax.Although I'm not sure where a sax range is;when jazz guitars back vocals that is something they do ...
- Or maybe try some walking bass lines stuff on the top strings
- whatever happens - keep time !
- I think certain instruments like sax play better in some keys than others like the flat keys = sucky po for guitar dudes
I always wanted to jam with a sax ...have fun !
So does Turkey border on the Mediterranean ?
Are you near the ocean ?
Do you go to any old ruins or ancient sites ?
Must be cool - you should post some pics !

Ps - there is tab here for So What - maybe the sax knows that ...

[Crazy 9.5 Fingers]

Pretty sure that Brubeck played Take Five in Eb originally. That song has had a profound impact on my life as I have written a few tunes in 5/4, I just like the one, two, three, one two vibe. Stereolab also had a few in that signature.

As far as learning standards such as Autumn Leaves which may be the quintessential standard, I would get Ted Greene's book called Chord Chemistry. It is a pretty hairy read, but I think he is the best at explaining chord structures and how they move around the fretboard. Get that and a Real Book and you are there. A tune like Autumn Leaves is great as it is pretty easy to learn, relatively easy to solo over, and has the cornerstone of all jazz the II, V, I chord change right off the bat.

That F#m7b5 is actually a pretty simple chord. Basically play an A minor in the open position and root it with F#. There's your chord.

Also for all those dominant 7 chords you can sub dominant 9ths for them to spice it up a bit.


If you are going to play a duo format with a sax, you are going to be responsible for rooting the chord tones on the 5th or 6th string, otherwise the bottom won't be there.

The thing about jazz or music in general is that you can take a major triad, Eb for example and root it with a C and you have a Cm7. Things like that are often written as slash chords (that would be written as Eb/C).

Another example would be G/A which I think is an A major 11th or an A sus of some sort. But the point is that rooting with the right tone is essential in jazz so keep that in mind. Much easier to find a nice upright bass player to make it a trio than bear the burden of comping and playing bass at the same time. We are not all Charlie Hunters or Charlie Christians right?

Good luck!

[CountryMile Cadillac]

Hey d-v-s, this has nothing to do with the topic, but Turkey had a good show in the Euro Cup

[Emoto]

One of the best things a guitarist can own is a big thick chord dictionary. I have several. Look up a chord and find all of the different forms. Always try to learn several different voicings of each one, as each inversion will sound just a little different, allowing you to color the song to your wishes.

[hesgone95]

I don't play jazz, but I do like adding jazz inversions in my rhythm. If this helps these are the inversions that came to mind readily, I think there are a fair bit of common strings which means easier changes. Not all of the chords are jazz inversions but FWIW:

Am7-----D7------Gmaj7----Cmaj7----F#m7b9----B7------Em

5------5-------x--------3--------x---------2--------7
5------7-------3--------5--------10--------4--------8
5------5-------4--------4--------9---------2--------9
5------7-------4--------5--------10--------4--------9
x------5-------x--------3--------9---------2--------7
5------x-------3--------x--------x---------x--------x

B7b9
--2--
--1--
--2--
--1--
--2--
--x--

That B7b9 is a bit tricky but if you give these inversions a try I think that you'll find the common strings make the changes fairly easy. IMHO the high notes on the e string are not always necessary b/c they are just a doubling up of one of the triad notes, the 1 or 5 in these cases.

As far as that walk down there in the latter half of part B, I would just do it with 5th string root barre chords. Anyway hope this makes sense and helps a bit. Peace.

Fred

[wisedyes]

The easiest way to go about comping this song, especially since you have a sax player, is to use "shell voicings" and chord reduction techniques. The sax player will be handling the extensions, so all you really need to worry about is providing a: the bottom ( a bass-line ) and b: good decent harmonization for him to play against.

Here are shell voicings for Major, minor and dominant 7th chords with the roots on the 6th and 5th strings. All the chords are movable like standard barre chords. We'll put everything at the fifth fret for reference - so for the 6th string roots, these chords would all be A's, and for the 5th string roots, they would all be D's.

Major 7th Minor 7th Dominant 7th


E/6 --5-- --5-- --5--
A/5 --x-- --x-- --x--
D/4 ---6- --5-- --5--
G/3 ---6- --5-- --6--
B/2 --x-- --x-- --x--
e/1 --x-- --x-- --x--


E/6 --x-- --x-- --x--
A/5 --5-- --5-- --5--
D/4 --4-- --3-- --4--
G/3 --6-- --5-- --5--
B/2 --x-- --x-- --x--
e/1 --x-- --x-- --x--

So, these all represent the Major, minor, and dominant 7th chords using the 1, 3rd, and seventh of each chord with NO EXTENSIONS. Since the roots are all found on the lowest strings, they will also provide a strong bass movement from chord to chord, especially if you use half step slides in between each chord change.

If you want to explore these chord forms further, all they are is the root, 3rd ( major or minor ) and seventh ( Major for Major 7th, flatted seventh for minor or dominant sevenths ) of each chord formed by using the corresponding Major or minor scale forms at the fret in question ( in this case, the fifth fret ). So, to say solo over the A minor 7, if you use the fifth fret chord form, from there you just play off the A Dorian scale at the fifth fret. To add extensions ( 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, #/b 5ths, etc. ), just find them in the scale form and tag them onto the top note of the chord. For instance, here's A minor 7/b5 :

E/6 --5--
A/5 --x--
D/4 --5--
G/3 --5--
B/2 -4---
e/1 --x--

Slide all this down to the second fret for F#m7b5, up to the 8th fret for Cm7b5, and so on. Here's A 13 at the fifth fret :

E/6 --5--
A/5 --x--
D/4 --5--
G/3 ---6-
B/2 ----7
e/1 --x--

If you need to work on creating a solo over this, let us know and I'm sure we can help you out there. Basically, it's a series of ii-V-I progressions with connecting chords in between. Over the Am7 - D7 - G maj7 - C Maj7 part, a G Major scale fits all the chords fine. Just "think" A Dorian and D Mixolydian over those chords.

For the F#m7b5 - B7b9 - E minor part, an E Harmonic minor scale would sound hip as hell. Trust me on this.

[Tennessee Jedi]

Dude - thats hardcore !
I gotta check that out ....
Some good info man Thanks

[Rev_Roach]

good suggestions so far about technique to your playing, im gonna go in another direction and suggest ideas of progressions/songs to play.

Autumn Leaves sounds good, its a classic and a great haunting tune with a relatively basic progression and rhythm. Don't drive yourself nuts over that altered chord, im pretty sure its only half a bar long anyway.

You can also do a lot with just some standard progressions.

12-bar I-IV-I-V-IV-I
I-vi-IV-V (ex. C-Am-F-G or more interestingly Cmaj7 Am9
Fmaj7 G9).
I-IV-ii-V (ex C-F-Dm-G or Cmaj7-Fmaj11-Dm9-G7#5)

There's nothing special about the upper extensioins i suggested. Play around with your extensions like that to see what you enjoy, don't just chomp the same shit over and over while you let the sax player go. If you are playing G7 this time around, next time try alternating G7 with G7b9, G7#5 or G13. Fool around rhythm, hit an especially dissonant note on the very last beat like a #9 or something, put a particular emphasis on bassnotes since its just you and the sax, such as approaching a chord by fifth, seventh, tonic (C7: G-Bb-C). Or bouncing off the tonic/fifth on roots of chords in a Ramble On Rose kind of way (like if you are playing some type of barred E on the fifth string, use the E as bass note sometimes and B below sometimes) Use your imagination and have fun, thats jazz. If the sax player is any good he should be able to play some cool stuff as long as you give him a good base.

Take Five would be a little tougher, particularly rhythmically. Guess what time signature it is?

[Rev_Roach]

One more thing is transposition. His C is not that same as your C.

If he plays an alto sax, his C sounds like Eb. (Minor 3rd aka step and a half up)
If he plays a tenor sax, his C sounds like Bb (One step down)

I would suggest you tailor the key of your songs to what works for the sax player. It's esaier for you to slide a few frets either way than for him to play with cumbersome sharps or flats he'd rather not have.

[d-v-s]

WOW, great showing of RUKIND jazz knowledge here!! Thanks a million to all who chimed in on this. I'm carefully reading all of your notes and melding them into something. I spent an hour or so today, just going over the chords, voicings, and inversions of all the chords. I'm almost though with the first 2 lines of the song... I think I may just stick to listening to jazz - it's a lot easier.

Let me respond to some questions here:

So does Turkey border on the Mediterranean ?
Are you near the ocean ?
Do you go to any old ruins or ancient sites ?
Must be cool - you should post some pics !

Yes, Turkey's bordered by the Black Sea on the north, the Aegean Sea on the West (where I am), and the Mediterranean on the south (about 2 hours drive from my house). Izmir, where I live, is a great location, right on the sea, and close to a lot of historical sites - the library of Ephesus (1 of the 7 wonders of the ancient world), the last home of the virgin mary, the city of Troy, and Asos (where Aristotle taught), which also has a great view of the island Lesbos. I'd love to post some pics, but my company blocks most filehosting sites. Any recommendations on where I can upload them to post them here?

this has nothing to do with the topic, but Turkey had a good show in the Euro Cup

You said it mate! it was a roller coaster ride to the end here in Turkey. You should have been here when they beat Croatia in the quarter finals. People were dancing in the streets, waving flags, hanging out of cars, etc. The whole country was partying all night. Best party I've ever been to.

Over the Am7 - D7 - G maj7 - C Maj7 part, a G Major scale fits all the chords fine. Just "think" A Dorian and D Mixolydian over those chords.

wisedyes, good call on the D mixo there. I was actually looking at it as E Aeolian, but same difference. I'm gonna post some more later with what I worked out, in case anyone else is interested. Thanks again for all the help.

[d-v-s]

This is the main melody line that i've got so far:

E|-----------8-------------7--7-------------5----------------
B|--5--7--8----------5--7----------------5-------------4--8--
G|----------------7----------------5--7----------4--6--------
D|-----------------------------------------------------------
A|-----------------------------------------------------------
E|-----------------------------------------------------------

After tinkering with some postions, I liked these the best for play-ability. I'm basically skipping the harmonic chords - D7, Cmaj7 and B7 - and focusing on the main chords. I've been messing around with adding voicings of D7 to Am7 as I transition to the Gmaj7 etc.

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    Am7 Gmaj7 F#m7b5 Em
E|---------7----5----3--
B|----5----7----5----5--
G|----5----7----5----4--
D|----5----5----4----5--
A|----------------------
E|---------------------- 

I've been trying to mix the melody line between these main chords. Tomorrow I'll try the other bit (F#m7b5 B7b9 Em Am7 D7 Gmaj7 ...)