[Jedstein]

Hi folks. So, as a relative newbie Jerry guitar player, I’ve now been playing my Jerry ax (a Jerryfied Andrew Olson PRS SE 24) for about a month. It sounds amazing (to my ears at least). Took me a little while to get used to the middle pickup (I was smacking into it with the pick for a while), but I don’t notice it too much at this point. I’m playing it through a Shakedown Twin with a 2 X 12 Trucker’s Cab, containing a JBL K120 and a Weber. I think I’ve managed to get some nice clean lead tones and I absolutely love driving the thing through my Earth Drive. But I’m having a heck of a time controlling the brightness, particularly on rhythm, but even during clean leads, especially when the humbuckers are split, it can sound a bit shrill. Super ice-picky at times! So, what to do? Well – the first thing I did, of course, was comb through the forum archive – and I got all sorts of ideas – which I’ll summarize (in no particular order) below. Would love input from you guys on any of the following ideas in addition to anything else that you think might be helpful. What’s helped you guys out the most in this area?

1. Position the cabinet on the floor. Right now – it’s elevated – so I’m excited to see the impact this will have. But – I’d like to tilt it – so the sound hits me in the face. Will that defeat the purpose?
2. Work the tone knob on my guitar – I’ve obviously been doing this – but even when I roll the tone back – it’s still a bit ice picky.
3. Picking technique – I’m getting more and more attuned to how important this is. Attacking the strings too hard seems to make it sound a lot more shrill, while a delicate touch can seem to make it sing more.
4. Action – I know this topic has been covered widely. Mine is clearly too low. The strings are buzzing a bit – maybe not too much for some people – but I don’t like it. I’ve been gradually raising them, which helps, but I think they probably need to come way up. Would be curious to hear people’s thoughts on the tonal impact is of raising the action. In particular, is it less shrill? You think that’s part of my problem?
5. Getting a Mac? I’m only in the Jerry game for about 5 months – and I’ve gone completely crazy buying equipment – so I’d love to just live with what I have for a while (and prove to my wife I can control my addiction), but the one thing I don’t have is a Mac. I know that plenty of folks will just play a Twin Blackface with Jerry mods without the Mac, while others use a Mac (religiously). Again – I know there have been many threads dedicated to the Mac – what it does etc . . . . But I’d be curious to hear how folks think the Mac effects effect the problem I’m complaining about (the brightness/shrillness of my tone). Will it add the warmth I’m looking for?
6. Tone knobs on the amp – it seems that there are different approaches in this regard. I’ve been pretty much going full Jerry – cranking the treble and zeroing out the mids and bass. Sometimes I turn up the mids just a bit. Do you guys feel that traditional Jerry tone settings on the Twin are unrealistic for mere mortals playing small bars and clubs (as opposed to stadiums)? I ask because I've seen many opine that his tone setting might not work as well in smaller venues. What tweaks have you guys made in this regard (if any)?

That’s everything I can think of. Would greatly appreciate any input from the experts on what I can do to tame the brightness in my set-up!

Thanks!

Jed

[lightningbolt]

6. Tone knobs on the amp – it seems that there are different approaches in this regard. I’ve been pretty much going full Jerry – cranking the treble and zeroing out the mids and bass. Sometimes I turn up the mids just a bit. Do you guys feel that traditional Jerry tone settings on the Twin are unrealistic for mere mortals playing small bars and clubs (as opposed to stadiums)? I ask because I've seen many opine that his tone setting might not work as well in smaller venues. What tweaks have you guys made in this regard (if any)?

This is the first place I would look. Jerry kept his mid-range in the 5.5-7 range...not zeroed out like the bass control.

[kurt eye]

I had one of my blown K-120s reconed to D-120 specs. The D-120 is definitely richer in the mids and less brittle sounding to my ears.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-D120-K120-E ... qDJiKaOy4w

[GeneralGoldilocks]

Treble on the amp. You have to use what sounds good to you, and yes, Jerry probably had his treble on 11 all the time, but if you are getting ice picked to death, turn it down and enjoy life with a less ice picky tone. Sometimes ice picky highs are what it takes to cut through a band mix and sound great and up front, but other situations it isn't going to work. I have found this to be true with fenders, but especially mesa boogies. Lots of folks on this forum struggle with the ice pick highs and I have just decided that if it isn't fun and sounding good, just turn down the treble on your amp. bask in the warmth.

[Ebearius]

Just set it however it sounds right at the time. The "Jerry settings" are what Garcia used to cut through the entire ensemble of the Grateful Dead. I doubt he "ice picked" himself to death sitting at home through a practice amp.
Everyone likes a warmer sound when playing alone. Just turn the high end back a bit. If you forget to reset it when you play with your entire band, you will quickly be reminded when you find yourself struggling to be heard. In that case, just reach over and turn the knob back up.

[RiseandFall]

OP. I enjoyed your post. I've been there myself.
Firstly, as someone above mentioned, the midrange control is not set on zero. Mine is set near 11:00. It is one of the latter adjustments I do.
There is much complexity in achieving what you are shooting for, and I think it is safe to say the answer is different for everyone due to differences in gear.

My experience with backing the pre-amp treble off from 10 is that I lose a bit of mid-range clarity on my lower strings when playing halfway up the neck. For me there is a balance of having the "right" tone that involves several aspects/demands....having the high individual notes sing...having halfway up the neck be articulate...and having the low strings punch a bit (think Althea/China Cat/Sugaree). So it is a bit of a balancing act, and inherent in that balancing act (for me anyway) is the occasional piercing treble.
This gets tamed in a few ways for me.
1. I've found once the preamp and power amp (an MC50...more on that in a bit) warm up sufficiently (20 minutes in), the highs get ....rounder....less shrill....warmer.
2. I've also noted that after picking the guitar up and playing for a while, my touch gets a bit lighter and a bit more accurate. This seems to tame the highs a bit.
3. I can also tell you with a degree of certainty that reverb plays a role. There is a fine line between what sounds right and too much, and the answer for me is wetter than what sounds right to my ear. I may not be expressing this right, but you want your reverb higher than you think you want it.
4. Cabinet placement. You don't need it pointing at your head, you need it pointing at your knees. You will hear it. Jerry played on huge stages to massive crowds through giant PA systems with a loud band. We don't so much. And for me it needs to be on the floor and not tilted or the highs really become unmanageable.
5. Action and pick-up height. The mechanics of this might be too complex for me to even discuss, but I can tell you that you WILL get used to higher action, and the notes seem to ring more clearly. Slowly work your way up. You will be glad you did.
6. Guitar volume pot. I get it where it sounds just right, then after I've been playing for a while I turn it up a little more and play a little lighter. This helps with dynamics. For me anyway.

Now...regarding your Mac question. I don't know specifically how it affects highs VS. a non Mac setup. But I do know, to my ear, the Mac adds a sweet, boxy compactness (NOT compression) that is musical and Jerry like. Coupled with my Earth drive, I can be quite clean sounding, but playing high notes harder gets me in the neighborhood of the classic Jerry breakup (which really comes from the speakers breaking up at high volume)....but I use my ED to simulate it.

Don't know if any of this helped but I wish you luck on the road you are on. Many of us are on it too.

[playingdead]

I moved away from the analog stuff years ago but one thing I realized when I was doing a lot of dialing in on my current rig by using multitracked recordings is that when the guitar sits correctly in the mix it is definitely fairly harsh sounding compared to a warm, analog tube tone that sounds pleasing when you're playing the guitar alone in a room. So, if you just want to dial it in so it sounds good to your ears, experiment with various settings and don't worry too much about what ol' Jer did. If you want it to sound right live and cut through a band mix, it's probably brighter and more strident than you think it should be.

When I was using Hard Truckers cabinets, I had a 2X10 with JBL K-110s loaded, and that just sounded sweet and warm and awesome on its own. But it didn't sound good with the full band, I needed the harsher E-120s to cut through and sit in the mix properly.

You can find evidence of this in lots of other places if you listen to isolated guitar parts from some famous rock tunes ... what sounds fat and sassy sitting in the mix, you hear it on its own and it's like, really? That's what it sounded like miked up in the live room?

[Jedstein]

6. Tone knobs on the amp – it seems that there are different approaches in this regard. I’ve been pretty much going full Jerry – cranking the treble and zeroing out the mids and bass. Sometimes I turn up the mids just a bit. Do you guys feel that traditional Jerry tone settings on the Twin are unrealistic for mere mortals playing small bars and clubs (as opposed to stadiums)? I ask because I've seen many opine that his tone setting might not work as well in smaller venues. What tweaks have you guys made in this regard (if any)?

This is the first place I would look. Jerry kept his mid-range in the 5.5-7 range...not zeroed out like the bass control.

Thanks, Lightingbolt. Wow -- how did I miss that??? Will definitely give that a shot!

[Jedstein]

Treble on the amp. You have to use what sounds good to you, and yes, Jerry probably had his treble on 11 all the time, but if you are getting ice picked to death, turn it down and enjoy life with a less ice picky tone. Sometimes ice picky highs are what it takes to cut through a band mix and sound great and up front, but other situations it isn't going to work. I have found this to be true with fenders, but especially mesa boogies. Lots of folks on this forum struggle with the ice pick highs and I have just decided that if it isn't fun and sounding good, just turn down the treble on your amp. bask in the warmth.

Thanks -- will definitely give that shot (no reason not to). I've been hesitating to turn down the treble on the amp because I read a post from a little while back (which I now can't find for the life of me) where Brad Sarno and Waldo were explaining how the treble was voiced on the Twin -- and that I think it actually contained some lower end signals within it, and how turning down the treble on the amp could throw everything off (I'm paraphrasing poorly). But I've heard this a couple times. Andrew Olson also advised me to turn down the tone knob on the guitar first -- before messing with the amp. But again -- it sure can't hurt to experiment with it -- especially if works for people!

[Jedstein]

Just set it however it sounds right at the time. The "Jerry settings" are what Garcia used to cut through the entire ensemble of the Grateful Dead. I doubt he "ice picked" himself to death sitting at home through a practice amp.
Everyone likes a warmer sound when playing alone. Just turn the high end back a bit. If you forget to reset it when you play with your entire band, you will quickly be reminded when you find yourself struggling to be heard. In that case, just reach over and turn the knob back up.

Good advice -- thanks!

[strumminsix]

I moved away from the analog stuff years ago but one thing I realized when I was doing a lot of dialing in on my current rig by using multitracked recordings is that when the guitar sits correctly in the mix it is definitely fairly harsh sounding compared to a warm, analog tube tone that sounds pleasing when you're playing the guitar alone in a room. So, if you just want to dial it in so it sounds good to your ears, experiment with various settings and don't worry too much about what ol' Jer did. If you want it to sound right live and cut through a band mix, it's probably brighter and more strident than you think it should be.

When I was using Hard Truckers cabinets, I had a 2X10 with JBL K-110s loaded, and that just sounded sweet and warm and awesome on its own. But it didn't sound good with the full band, I needed the harsher E-120s to cut through and sit in the mix properly.

You can find evidence of this in lots of other places if you listen to isolated guitar parts from some famous rock tunes ... what sounds fat and sassy sitting in the mix, you hear it on its own and it's like, really? That's what it sounded like miked up in the live room?

AMEN! Most guitarists turn up, smart guitarists cut in.

[Trecia]

I've been getting more mileage out of the guitar's knobs lately. If you have your rig so it's set up bright and icepick at the loudest you will play in a show (or even a a set... or a song) it will be noticeably mellower if you turn down for the supporting parts but should still have a nice snap when you need it.

[aiq]

I believe to set a Fender amp "flat" is T - 0, M - 7, B - 0. A T,B only (Bassman) has the internal mid set at 7.

I recently accquired a 68 Bassman with a couple of mods: 25 - 50 watt switch and a midrange control added. Also the output stage modded to blackface. I got to use it at a gig a few weeks back. Love it, going into a 1 x 12 pine closed back with Weber Cali 12 ceramic.cab set on the stage.

I set the mid at around 7, then T at 7 and bass at around 2.5. AO Jerryfied Firebird w/SS frets, titanium saddles.

Plenty bright and yet full.

Disclaimer: not chasing a pure Jerry tone, just "Jerryish".

A clip: disclaimer 2: the last time this group played was, we think, '76, no rehearsal, and not going for tribute just playing the tunes.

https://youtu.be/YRXWk-mzphs

[Jedstein]

OP. I enjoyed your post. I've been there myself.
Firstly, as someone above mentioned, the midrange control is not set on zero. Mine is set near 11:00. It is one of the latter adjustments I do.
There is much complexity in achieving what you are shooting for, and I think it is safe to say the answer is different for everyone due to differences in gear.

My experience with backing the pre-amp treble off from 10 is that I lose a bit of mid-range clarity on my lower strings when playing halfway up the neck. For me there is a balance of having the "right" tone that involves several aspects/demands....having the high individual notes sing...having halfway up the neck be articulate...and having the low strings punch a bit (think Althea/China Cat/Sugaree). So it is a bit of a balancing act, and inherent in that balancing act (for me anyway) is the occasional piercing treble.
This gets tamed in a few ways for me.
1. I've found once the preamp and power amp (an MC50...more on that in a bit) warm up sufficiently (20 minutes in), the highs get ....rounder....less shrill....warmer.
2. I've also noted that after picking the guitar up and playing for a while, my touch gets a bit lighter and a bit more accurate. This seems to tame the highs a bit.
3. I can also tell you with a degree of certainty that reverb plays a role. There is a fine line between what sounds right and too much, and the answer for me is wetter than what sounds right to my ear. I may not be expressing this right, but you want your reverb higher than you think you want it.
4. Cabinet placement. You don't need it pointing at your head, you need it pointing at your knees. You will hear it. Jerry played on huge stages to massive crowds through giant PA systems with a loud band. We don't so much. And for me it needs to be on the floor and not tilted or the highs really become unmanageable.
5. Action and pick-up height. The mechanics of this might be too complex for me to even discuss, but I can tell you that you WILL get used to higher action, and the notes seem to ring more clearly. Slowly work your way up. You will be glad you did.
6. Guitar volume pot. I get it where it sounds just right, then after I've been playing for a while I turn it up a little more and play a little lighter. This helps with dynamics. For me anyway.

Now...regarding your Mac question. I don't know specifically how it affects highs VS. a non Mac setup. But I do know, to my ear, the Mac adds a sweet, boxy compactness (NOT compression) that is musical and Jerry like. Coupled with my Earth drive, I can be quite clean sounding, but playing high notes harder gets me in the neighborhood of the classic Jerry breakup (which really comes from the speakers breaking up at high volume)....but I use my ED to simulate it.

Don't know if any of this helped but I wish you luck on the road you are on. Many of us are on it too.

Super helpful -- thanks so much! Lots of stuff here!

I actually experienced what you're talking about in point # 2 just last night when I was practicing. I've been working on Let It Grow -- and trying to get my hands used to all the shredding Jer does on it. Was getting a way better tone with those lines I was running about a half-hour in.

Interesting point about the reverb. I'll try dialing it up a bit.

Just put the cabinet on the floor -- and holy shit -- what a difference. So much more bass. I was obsessed with having it hit me in the face for volume control purposes -- since on occasion -- the guys in the band have told me that I play too loud! And I was thinking that if I could hear it better than anyone, it would help me control my volume. But the tonal benefits of having it on the floor are huge, so it's staying there.

It seems to be fairly unanimous that the higher action, the richer the tone. I'm going to continue to raise mine.

Another great point about volume -- allowing you to pick lighter and control dynamics.

I suppose the Mac is inevitable at some point, but with all this good information, I think I can work on dialing in my tone for a while before I have to break down and add another piece of new gear (even if that gear is a much beloved piece). But -- I'm sure it's just a matter of time . . . .

Thanks again!

[Jedstein]

I moved away from the analog stuff years ago but one thing I realized when I was doing a lot of dialing in on my current rig by using multitracked recordings is that when the guitar sits correctly in the mix it is definitely fairly harsh sounding compared to a warm, analog tube tone that sounds pleasing when you're playing the guitar alone in a room. So, if you just want to dial it in so it sounds good to your ears, experiment with various settings and don't worry too much about what ol' Jer did. If you want it to sound right live and cut through a band mix, it's probably brighter and more strident than you think it should be.

When I was using Hard Truckers cabinets, I had a 2X10 with JBL K-110s loaded, and that just sounded sweet and warm and awesome on its own. But it didn't sound good with the full band, I needed the harsher E-120s to cut through and sit in the mix properly.

You can find evidence of this in lots of other places if you listen to isolated guitar parts from some famous rock tunes ... what sounds fat and sassy sitting in the mix, you hear it on its own and it's like, really? That's what it sounded like miked up in the live room?

Really interesting point. Thanks. Actually -- I don't even get to play my Twin too much on my own. Even though I love playing it -- I got tired of lugging the head and Trucker's Cab out of the other guitar player's basement. So -- I scored a Blues Junior for practicing at home -- which is pretty perfect for playing by myself. My brightness complaint was actually based upon how my tone sounded when playing with the band. But it's a great point -- how different your tone sounds when mixed with the band -- as opposed to by itself. And then -- when we play a show -- it's a whole different room with a whole other set of variables . . . .