[cripeowner]

It was taken down at my request (I posted it) there was nothing nefarious done by the operators of this site. It was solely done by me. I believe in giving people a chance to make things right. I will post a review In due time. Some artist/ craftsman may get caught up in their own craft on their schedule. Joe makes it clear he cares about about what he does and might be an over the top perfectionist. I will certainly let all those interested of the outcome. Don't make judgements just yet. Redemption just may be the result.

So, you started that thread and opened the "can of worms" just as a ploy to maybe get him motivated to do the right thing and then delete it? Or did you think the thread was a mistake, after the fact? I don't get it. Seems calculated and convoluted.
We all know that extenuating circumstances can cause inadvertent situations, but keeping someones money (especially upwards of $900 that was mentioned) is just unacceptable. There are no excuses. There can only be forgivable compassion for him if there is legitimate reasoning from him, personally. Not from a "spokes person".
He has great Jerry chops and has built/modded some great amps, but I chose not to deal with him a few years ago, for good reason.

Hippyguy re read the post. Nobody said anything about keeping $900. Loose accusations like that are unfair and irresponsible. Are you accusing someone of being a thief without any knowledge? Your insight to my motivations are what? Your best guess? Please don't speculate on behalf. The issue here is managing customer expectations. The kind of thing some people do well and others not so much. As I said when all is said and done I will post a review. In hindsight looks like this might have been a mistake after all because I can smell the internet venom.

[phpbb]

I was asked to take it down, I truly felt and still think that the intention of the request was one of sincere hope for a second chance from a victim of his acts, not some malicious destruction of your freedom, or some backhanded threat against him to get to work. I am sorry that this has caused an issue, clearly people have an issue with Joe, and I am sorry that the removal of the thread has riled them, that, I hope you can understand, was not my intention, I was thinking more from the standpoint of the person that was hurt, than the person doing the hurting. If I was asked to remove the thread from Shakedown Amps, I would see that as censorship. If I got a request from a judge because his lawyers want to hold me libel, that would suck.

So, to answer the statements

1> If it has been killed, please reverse this censorship. I will say absolutely that there is information stewing in PM's that potential consumers need to know. If this vendor is being protected, it is almost certainly to the detriment and integrity of the equipment acquisition portion of this entire enterprise.

I believe this thread has taken care of reversing the "censored" information. I didn't do it to protect a vendor, I did it because I thought the request was a genuine request of hope, which, maybe I am a sucker, but resonated with me. I do see very clearly the point, if you type in Shakedown street amps into google, the first link is to rukind, and is a positive review of his work, which, isn't the whole story, and there should be a way to tell other side of a relationship - like when it goes bad.

2> We could also use a vendor rating system similar to Ebay (as per Jam35Gr3g0ry). This would help folks with GAS get to the Kind Goods.

That is an interesting idea Currently, I have no business relationship with any vendor or person on this site, I think of it like the parking lot at a Dead show. Lots of people sell things individually through the "Garage Sale" site, I would like to know how that would work with a rating system.

3> "I'm pretty sure that's not the only thread that's disappeared in the last few months"

This is the only request that I have been asked to remove (recently), because my policy is not to remove posts, unless I am asked by the poster, and I make the decision to do so. So, unless you are looking for fine kitchen cabinetry from the UK, it's probably in here somewhere.

4> I agree, it is at a minimum distasteful to selectively edit and manipulate information whether based on ideology or relationships. The truth doesn't need this kind of "help". Plus the posts were very respectful and tempered.

It was actually the softness of the posts that led me to believe this was not a big deal and a small discussion between a few people, I did not understand the scope of the issue.

5> It would appear as though forces at work are neither kind, nor fair.

I am sorry you feel that way, my actions were based on kindness and fairness, a request from a victim, which carries more weight.

6> Total crap! Freedom of speech! If the guy is a douche canoe, then the good people here need to know. I was skeptical at first, but now after the thread being removed, am a bit more hesitant about Shakedown!

I do agree that the good people here need to know, and, I do believe this thread is doing that.

7> I think people need to start posting their stories openly in response. No more coy PM-me nice guy business. Bring it on right here, in the open. Sorry, but I hate censorship with a passion.

as long as you base your stories on facts, you should. Now I wonder if the PMs on this site have more information that the site itself.

8> It was taken down at my request (I posted it) there was nothing nefarious done by the operators of this site. It was solely done by me. I believe in giving people a chance to make things right. I will post a review In due time. Some artist/ craftsman may get caught up in their own craft on their schedule. Joe makes it clear he cares about about what he does and might be an over the top perfectionist. I will certainly let all those interested of the outcome. Don't make judgements just yet. Redemption just may be the result.

I sincerely hope that this is true, and you certainly do owe a review including the good, bad and ugly when this issue is resolved.

9> Wald Electronics, Sarno Music Solutions, Scarlet Fire and others.

Like I said, I have no business relationship with any of them, but I do appreciate their business ethic, and contributions to this board. It exemplifies the way things should be.

10> That is total horseshit!

OK.

11> There can only be forgivable compassion for him if there is legitimate reasoning from him, personally. Not from a "spokes person".

Base on my communication with cripeowner, it was entirely "forgivable compassion" that led to his decision to remove the post.

12> that the members posting aren't subject to the lawsuit that RUKIND would be if things went south

and when you say "RUKIND", when it comes to lawsuits, that will be ME.

13> Nobody said anything about keeping $900

read #7.

So, I am truly sorry for the removal of the thread, but I do feel the topic has been covered here. There is no cabal, no ill intentions, and no conspiracy to censor information.

[Jam35Gr3g0ry]

.

[milobender]

Thanks James, for the thorough, detailed, and even description of your interaction.

[TI4-1009]

3> "I'm pretty sure that's not the only thread that's disappeared in the last few months"

This is the only request that I have been asked to remove (recently), because my policy is not to remove posts, unless I am asked by the poster, and I make the decision to do so. So, unless you are looking for fine kitchen cabinetry from the UK, it's probably in here somewhere.

My bad. It took some help but I found it. Sorry for fueling the fire with rumor and innuendo. Slap.

And I am enjoying my fine new Lancashire kitchen, thank you.

[myoung6923]

I have known and dealt with Joe for my amps for probably about 8 years now. I honestly can't say enough about him and his work.

When I bought my first amp from him, he met me about 1/2 way between New York (where he was) and Boston (where I was) to sell me a fender twin that he had put together. We took it into a convenience store and the owner let us plug it in and play through it for a couple of minutes. The amp sounded great, I paid him and went on my merry way. Joe didn't ask for a penny extra for his time or gas to do that.

Over the years he has been very loyal to wanting to maintain the amp. We have kept in touch and 4 times or so he has made the trip up to Boston to work on the amp or put in new mods or whatever. A few months ago he even made the trip up just to set me up with a Mac and a pre-amp for the night, test it all out and let me use it all night.

I still use his amp - a "73 Silverface" that is so modded that who knows what you'd call it now - a Shakedown Amp Twin I guess...

I wholeheartedly endorse Joe and I'm sorry if anyone has any sort of bad dealings. I would think that given the chance, he would certainly make things right.

[Smolder]

Thnx much for the response phpbb.

[ebick]

One other point on "Freedom Of Speech"

Anyone remember Jimmy The Greek? Used to work for CBS as an NFL analyst, was a handicapper. Some folks got him drunk and goaded him into saying some non-PC stuff. CBS fired him.

The point is this. whether goaded or not, Jimmy had a right to say whatever he wanted to say. The evidence of "Freedom of Speech" is apparent in the fact that he did not face any legal consequences for his words. CBS, however says....you are a face of this network, and whatever you say reflects upon us.....and we didn't like what ya said......so bye-bye.

Freedom of speech exists, but is not without the potential for consequences.

We get spammers who try to sell kitchens and prescription drugs and all kinds of shit here, We determine that their content is not desired here and we delete the posts and block them. That's our right. I trust the judgement of EVERY admin here and if any one of them feels that it is in the best interest of this site/community to remove a post, they have my support. And that does not make it an infringement on anyone's freedom of speech. If you say something we feel (for whatever reason) doesn't belong here, you are perfectly within your rights to start up your own web-site and say whatever you want.

[tcsned]

Plus, your First Amendment rights protect you from the government infringing on your right to speak freely. Ed is not the government, he is not bound by the first Amendment. I don't know too much about what all is going on with this thread issue but it is not a free speech issue.

[hippieguy1954]

Plus, your First Amendment rights protect you from the government infringing on your right to speak freely. Ed is not the government, he is not bound by the first Amendment. I don't know too much about what all is going on with this thread issue but it is not a free speech issue.

+1 Just a little friendly censorship, that's all.

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship

"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other such entities.
Governments, private organizations and individuals may engage in censorship. When an individual such as an author or other creator engages in censorship of their own works or speech, it is called self-censorship. Censorship may be direct or it may be indirect, in which case it is called soft censorship. It occurs in a variety of different media, including speech, books, music, films, and other arts, the press, radio, television, and the Internet for a variety of claimed reasons including national security, to control obscenity, child pornography, and hate speech, to protect children or other vulnerable groups, to promote or restrict political or religious views, and to prevent slander and libel."

[schmidtz]

+1 Just a little friendly censorship, that's all.

Wasn't I made fun of (by you) when I pointed this out on the other page?

[phpbb]

The key word is of the statement "Censorship is the suppression of speech" - is suppression. Nobody is suppressing your ability to discuss negative interactions with a vendor or member here, as long as it's based on facts. I think points #6,#7 and #13 reiterate that. In terms of Libel, as Ed pointed out, we are individually responsible for the words we write, not only here, but everywhere, and the consequences of them.

[hippieguy1954]

+1 Just a little friendly censorship, that's all.

Wasn't I made fun of (by you) when I pointed this out on the other page?

No, I was not making fun of you. If you read it again you will see. I strongly disagreed with you, but would not make fun of you.

Here is what I said:

Total crap! Freedom of speech!

I think "freedom of speech" is something that a vast number of people proclaim, but they have absolutely no idea what it means.

That is total horseshit! Most Americans are just as aware, educated and knowledgeable as YOU and know exactly what Freedom of Speech means.

I think this whole thread is bizarre.

[James-T]

I've got to say I appreciate parts of this thread and respect the guy who posted and then felt bad and deleted it. Too bad once again the negative voices have chimed in and cast doubt on some really good folks intentions.


Nothing wrong with having second thoughts about writing something and deleting it. Words when spoken are always softer than when in writing and it's a good board in the fact you can self censor.

As always ive perhaps rubbed some folks the wrong way in defense of others so I will self censor myself once I fill
my head with doubts and delete this post.

Many thanks to those willing to share their experiences. I will never lust after a shakedown amp again and perhaps will unlike his FB page. But you gotta like his videos.

Peace

James

[hippieguy1954]

Oh James T, at least have the honesty to say who the negative voices are you are referring to. Sometimes I think you confuse negative with honest. If someone doesn't agree with you, that doesn't make it negative.

Anyways, he didn't just delete what he wrote. That would have been admirable. He deleted the whole entire thread including posts others wrote as well. That is a significant difference than deleting your own post.

Also, how do you know what his intentions were? There can only be speculation about that. I tend to agree he had good intentions, but still speculation.

The original thread was a warning about shakedown amps and peoples experiences with them/him. Here we are having the same discussion anyway plus all this discourse about censorship. What was the point?