Grateful Dead Music Forum

Wasn't sure where to post this but am finally taking the plunge and hooking up with some folks to play electric stylee. Been really just an acoustic player but it will be 5 piece with bass, drums, acoustic guitar , electric fiddle and moi. We have no real aspirations, just mess'n and I'll be playing 2 different Strats thru an old Fender Bassman. We play'n Dead, reggae and just general jam stuff. My question is what [for a complete newbie] would be the first couple of FX pedals I should look at that would get me started as the sorta 'gotta have', who makes them and what should I look at paying for some quality without breaking the bank [Xmas bonus didn't come thru this yr]. Is there anything else I should know first? Thanx in advance.

budget friendly/decent tone
for the Shakedown vibe
have fun

Rather than experiment with individual pedals that will cost you plenty, you may actually find it cheaper to begin with something like this Line 6 M13 modeler that provides, while certainly not perfect, reasonable and useful clones of almost a hundred pedals and EQs. I recently replaced my entire huge board with one and I'm digging it. WYSIWYG - no levels of programming (I hate those types!). Considering what you get at $499, it's a bargain.

sack the wack wrote:... We have no real aspirations, just mess'n and I'll be playing 2 different Strats thru an old Fender Bassman. We play'n Dead, reggae and just general jam stuff...

Seems like since you are just getting started, you are looking to go kinda slow into acquiring the gear. I would say decent effects are going to start @ around $80 per and go up from there. T Jedi put the micro Qtron as a suggestion, which would be good for Dead and probably reggae. That box goes from around $85. You are running a bassman amp, which I think will be pretty clean so you might want to consider a distortion/drive type pedal. Maybe a Tube Screamer or similar.

But as Jon S. points out, it won't take long to get up to the multi-hundred dollar level as you get a tuner, 4 - 5 effects, a pedal board, etc. So the digital multi-effect box could be the way to go. But I think you are looking at the $500 range for anything decent, i.e. PODs, Line 6, Vox, etc.

I myself started buying kinda cheap effects ($35 - $60) just to see if I liked using them, which I did and then realized I needed better ones. Two are still on my board just cause I like the sound of them, they are somewhat unique and there is no real reason to switch them out but I have upgraded other pedals since and now have at least $500 invested with the pedals and board, patch cables and power supply. Another possibility is to go with a cheap, multi effects pedal that only has a couple effects, fool around for a while get the feel and then go for a bigger one.

To go digital or not? I am asking myself that as I am getting old and hauling around a 40 pound pedal board in addition to my amp and cab is getting to be a pain. Haven't pulled the trigger yet but quite a number of "veteran" players on the board are starting the switch. Just have to go quality for the long run.

Best of luck with the transition to electric and a whole different world of tone.

Dave

The best advice I have for you is this. Less is better, and no efx at all is fine. What makes you think you need any efx at all to start with? You don't. You already have a tone monster rig (gutars/amp combination) on your hands, don't mess with that right away or you will ruin it. If anything, go get yourself a distortion pedal for some lead work to start with and go from there. Let the type of music and your personal style you develop with your band dictate what you might get next if anything at all. The more efx you start with, especially a multi-efx rack unit, the more time your going to waste fooling around with it, the crappier tone you will end up with, and less music will actually be played. Certainly do not go out and by an envelope filter (such as a q-tron) to start with. That is the least used, and most expensive efx, in most peoples arsenals.

happy Trails

I'd respectfully disagree with KC.

Not on the part about how you can spend half your life messing with your pedals and tone and (so to speak) forgetting the love we bring.

Rather, the part about going straight guitar into amp when the amp is a Bassman (unless you play LOUD).

You mention you play Dead, raggae, and general jam stuff. For that, I would advise, at a minimum, overdrive, auto-wah, reverb, and perhaps compression, too because a Bassman is a loud mofo of an amp and needs to be cranked up to at least 4 or so to come into its own by which time you're really loud (if your amp as a Deluxe Reverb, I'd feel differently). Personally, I also use delays in my jam band quite frequently.

Do some research on what decent pedals for these effects will run you and a multieffects unit like an M13 (or its smaller and cheaper but only slightly less powerful brother, the M9) may start looking more and more attractive.

Oh, and I mentioned this before but, again, I dig my M13 specifically because once you call up a model, it's WYSIWYG - the real knobs correspond exactly to the LCD nob pix. I.e., it's easy to use.

KCJones wrote:The best advice I have for you is this. Less is better, and no efx at all is fine. What makes you think you need any efx at all to start with? You don't. You already have a tone monster rig (gutars/amp combination) on your hands, don't mess with that right away or you will ruin it. If anything, go get yourself a distortion pedal for some lead work to start with and go from there. Let the type of music and your personal style you develop with your band dictate what you might get next if anything at all. The more efx you start with, especially a multi-efx rack unit, the more time your going to waste fooling around with it, the crappier tone you will end up with, and less music will actually be played. Certainly do not go out and by an envelope filter (such as a q-tron) to start with. That is the least used, and most expensive efx, in most peoples arsenals.

happy Trails

I agree with the basic premise of this post if not all the details, in that I believe less is more too. Effects are like condiments to a cheeseburger, and the cheeseburger is your tone. If the cheeseburger sucks to begin with, it is still going to suck no matter how much ketchup, mustard and mayo you put on it. I would highly advise working on finding a tone that speaks to you using no effects except some reverb. Once you find your tone that way, then it is time to start adding layers to that sound.I think too many guitarists (me included) fall in to the trap of using effects altogether too much. Many unwittingly use them as a way of covering up deficiencies in tone and/or technique and imho that is the absolute wrong application for effects. They should be an embellishment on the base good tone. Not a cover up for bad tone.
Using Jerry as an example, as much as we talk about all the stuff he used, he played clean way more than people ordinarily think.Even in the 80's.
Also, if you listen to something like '73 Jerry and Merle (like live at keystone and that stuff) it just shows how effective and engaging a great guitarist can be with just a guitar and an amp and killer tone. He used nothing on that stuff except possibly slamming the front of his amp a bit harder with a stratoblaster, and it is tone to die for. It took me 25 years of playing professionally to finally start to realize that I needed to break everything down to its simplest form to get tones that speak to me personally, before I started adding effects back in for color. It is and always will be a work in progress for me (and for all players), but I personally have strongly been advising my guitar students to really simplify their approaches in regards to effects and I have noticed a huge improvement in a couple of them since. It really makes you concentrate on your playing technique and makes you a better player in the long run. There is a wide range of different colors you can get just out of a guitar plugged straight into an amp by using your hands and technique.
You can pick harder, pick softer, pick toward the bridge, pick toward the neck, use left hand vibrato, use different pickup positions, different tone settings on the guitar and amp, different volume settings on the guitar and amp and every one of those things will give you a different tonal palette. Explore all those possibilities before exploring pedals. As an example, crank your guitar volume to 10 and put the amp volume on 2 and see how that sounds. Then put the guitar volume on 2 and put the amp at a level that matches the loudness from the previous <guitar on 10 amp on 2> setting. It sounds different, doesnt it? Even though the apparent sound level is the same, the way the guitar and amp interact are different. All these differences need to be explored and understood.
Then and only then add one pedal (a distortion would be my first choice) and explore all the aforementioned items with the pedal engaged.The add another (a delay would be my second pedal) and explore that......and on and on..........

I wish I did that from the beginning. I am just starting to find my tone, and most of the time my tone still sucks, but I am comfortable that even when it sucks I at least know that I am on the right path to finding one that doesnt suck.

just my 2 (and a half) cents

KC
The guy wanted advice on some pedals to mess with and you tell him forget the pedals ????
I agree that the E.F. is not the most used pedal in the arsenal but there aint no way to do Shakedown/Estimated/Fire/Stranger with out one ....

He said he had a budget and wanted to experiment - everyone loves the "mutron" experience ...
Let the guy have some fun !
End of Rant.

mmmm cheeseburger. God I am starving and want one too.

Sorry, back on topic. Jeff hit it perfectly. Get your base tone and add layers!

To the OP - after I found my base tone it took me years to find the right pedals.

My goal the whole time - preserve my base tone (EQ tone, volume, more importantly mojo)

Good luck!

End of Rant.

That was a rant? Shit, you must not of had coffee yet. Point well taken though. But, no retraction here.

KCJones wrote:

End of Rant.

That was a rant? Shit, you must not of had coffee yet. Point well taken though. But, no retraction here.

There is a lot of merit in your post KC .... you make great points that are spot on ....

All great stuff guys. I truly expected as many different opinions on where to start as there are guitarists on this board. I personally prefer the earlier, cleaner Jerry sound and have always dug the clean sound you get from a Strat. To each his own. I'm just looking for some starting reference points to begin my 'edamucation'. I do want to keep it simple and work into stuff as I figure out where I'm going. I think the sound of the band will dictate some of that. The fiddle player is pretty hot and it will be more my job to texture and compliment that. We're just starting out so... I really appreciate the depth of knowledge that comes across here.
Pax

jeffm725 wrote: Also, if you listen to something like '73 Jerry and Merle (like live at keystone and that stuff) it just shows how effective and engaging a great guitarist can be with just a guitar and an amp and killer tone. He used nothing on that stuff except possibly slamming the front of his amp a bit harder with a stratoblaster, and it is tone to die for.

Just nitpicking, but Jerry didn't use a Stratoblaster or any buffer for that matter back in '73, I belive. Just passive strat pickups, maybe a wah, into his Twin preamp into the Mac into the JBL's.

All the more to help illustrate your point.

Brad

My 2 cents

To get a reasonable set of Jerryish sounds you can try some or all of this:

1) As others suggested, start with the clean sound, your guitar into the amp. Try to get good sounding rhythm sounds. Not sure if the bassman has reverb, but if it does not have reverb, you will be at a disadvantage right there. Otherwise bassmans sound great.

2)To be Jerryish sounding, delay is essential. I have an old Yamaha pedal (works but does not sound great) and recently I got a Boss DD3 delay which I am just playing around with(jury out on this one so far) You can find used Boss DD3 or DD6 pedals on EB or CL can get a DD3 for about 60.00. Opinions on good delay pedals?

3)The next most identifiable Jerry sound is the envelope filter. Some call these auto wahs, but be careful, you want a real envelope filter. Old mutrons are the standard to which all others are compared. I use a Boss FT-2. This is an envelope filter. Boss makes others which may or may not be envelope filters (auto-wahs). I call the envelope filters JERRY BOXES, since Jerry used this device more than anybody. Place the Jerry Box before the delay. Delay is essential to really nail the Shakedown type sound.

With the FT-2 and a delay you can get close approximation of the Shakedown sound that will amaze some people.

4)Next is Distortion. The options are endless as are the opinions. I use a Boss MT-2 (Metal Zone) you can get these cheap on EB or CL . I think they are great. we discussed it in another thread. Place the distortion box first in the chain.

You can put 3 boss pedals in a boss plastic "pedalboard" thingy, and it comes with the connectors and a power supply for the three pedals. You can put all of this together for about $150.

You too can astound and amaze your friends!

There are two important facets to this discussion. Jerry's TONE, and Jerry's effects. Jerry's tone exists with NO pedals or effects (other than reverb, of course). Delay was only used sometimes when he had his effects loop engaged. But mostly, he had no delay going on. The envelope filter was used on a handful of songs, and while distinctive and necessary on certain songs, it's not part of his "tone". Distortion is definitely an important effect too for certain solos, but not part of the "tone". So the tone discussion is about the pickups, the preamp, the power amp, the speakers, the guitar, the buffer, etc.

The pedal discussion is more about some basic essentials:
1 - distortion/overdrive - The MXR Dist+ is the classic and longest lived Jerry distortion pedal. Then in later years there are a couple of cool Boss OD's that were part of the arsenal.

2 - envelope filter - The real Mutron III is the sound. Any pedal that gets close to that will be great. The Q-Tron nails it. The Emma Discombobulator does real well. The Line6 Otto Filter does surprisingly well. The Micro Q-Tron kind of misses the mark. The Boss and MXR envelope filters definitely miss the mark. The HAZ Mutron isn't bad. And the new Electro Harmonix Enigma is supposedly great.

3 - delay - Jerry's delay sound was the MXR Analog delay. The Boss digital delays just don't get it because the fidelity of the echoes is too high and clean, although I think some of the newest DD series pedals from Boss do have an "analog" setting to darken the repeats. The new MXR Carbon Copy delay is KILLER at the Jerry delay. Really any delay pedal that has dark, analog or analog-sounding repeats will be just fine. But avoid a clean, hi-fi echo tone.

4 - phaser - The MXR Phase 100 is the ONLY way to go. If there is a Phase 100 clone out there, then I'm sure that will be fine too. But no other phaser does that sound just right.

5 - And I guess reverb should be mentioned. Most of our amps have reverb and if it's a Fender or Fender type spring reverb, that should get close or nail it. If it's gotta be a digital reverb, then there are a number of rack or pedal units that can do pretty good 'verbs with "hall" or "plate" settings. The right reverb is important as it was very much a part of Jerry's overall sound and perception of size and dimension.


Brad