Grateful Dead Music Forum

So the Dead band that my wife and I are in got our first invite to play out of state at the Mar-Va Theatre in MD. We're most excited, of course. Thing is, we're used to playing locally and it's not much of a hassle. We don't know where to start with this out of town thing. He sent us a slew of available dates between May and November for us to pick. The venue is almost 200 miles away so we're gonna try to book another show at the halfway point and make it more worthwhile. He also wants to know our financial requirements. How do we even begin negotiate this part? What factors need to be considered here before we even begin to seal the deal? I know I also need to ask about their sound/lighting situation (do we need our own sound/light rig?). I guess I just want to have everything in order to make sure that it ends up being worth it for all involved. Don't get me wrong, I believe in playing free for exposure and we do it plenty here at home. But we just feel like if we're driving 193 miles, we want to at least break even in the end. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated!

I would figure out who is providing and running your sound system before you work out pay.

Don't assume the beer is free. Remember the problems Jake and Elwood had at Bob's Kountry Bunker!

IMO, here is what I think of 100+ mile gigs:
$150 per band member

Sound and lighting adds in on top of that.

I've always thought that until you are bringing in good crowds locally, its hard to justify travel and expect to make a good buck also. Unless its going to become a home away from home thing where you play there every 4-6 weeks. Everyone is concerned about the bottom line. The venue owners too.

That being said, I would contact someone to do sound and lights and agree on a price before you finalize terms with the venue. That way you can incorporate that fee into your overhead.

If you can do it, like SS said, $150 is a very reasonable amount to ask per player for a travel gig of 100+ miles.

willmusic wrote:....worth it for all involved. Don't get me wrong, I believe in playing free for exposure and we do it plenty here at home. But we just feel like if we're driving 193 miles, we want to at least break even in the end.

No doubt.....or make some money like you should for all that time.

What you charge depends on what you want to make and what you're gonna spend. Hotel? Food? Beer? Gas? Tolls? Sound/Lights? Groupies?

$150 per player for a 4 hour gig with 8 hours travel is cheap IMHO. What do you charge locally?

What kind of draw do you/they expect. Once you know how many people you can honestly bring in then you can justify a bigger fee. Are they going to pay a flat fee and you'll have a built in crowd? Or are they going to expect that you will bring in the crowd and base your fee on that? One hard thing about out of town gigs is marketing - putting up flyers and that kind of thing... It can be hard to build a crowd out of town.

If it's somewhere that you think you can work with and that you can build a crowd then look at this first gig as the beginning. It usually takes a good amount of time in a new area to get your name around - most of that takes place word of mouth - one person sees you and tells his friend... So, maybe you can start with a small fee, break even - and keep working it until you get a big crowd?

First, thank guys for the input! We don't have much of a fanbase outside of Central VA (that I know of). The venue is the Marva Theatre in Pokomoke MD. First I was thinking 'Man, that's way outta the way. We'll NEVER get a draw out there!'. But the Eastern Shore gets a ton of tourists in the summer so I'm thinkin' maybe it's a summer concert thing. Whatever the case, he had to have seen by the setlists on our site that we haven't played outside Central VA. But without either side, his or ours, guessing at a draw he still wants to know our financial requirements. He never even told us how many seats the place has. We had to find out from their website. I'm thinking this will necessitate a couple of phone calls. First, to find out the general nature of the gig, get and idea of the expected draw, and discuss the sound/light situation. Then after running all that info by the band and making our collective decisions, call the venue back to attempt a final negotiation. Does this sound about right? We're just learning about this stuff and we want to work smart. Thanks again!!

PS: I'm thinking though, that since the available dates aren't until summer anyway it may give us optimal time to stir up a little somethin' out that way. At least reach out to potential fans in the region. We are welcoming any ideas regarding this as well!

Don't forget - despite whatever the venue says it's not your job to fill all the seats. PERIOD.

The venue has to establish themselves as a good live music room, do their own promo, set fair prices, etc.

strumminsix wrote:Don't forget - despite whatever the venue says it's not your job to fill all the seats. PERIOD.

The venue has to establish themselves as a good live music room, do their own promo, set fair prices, etc.

I agree with that for the most part. On the flip side of that, I have known a lot of bands who think they are superstars(rather than the basement noodlers they are) and expect to get paid big $$$ just to show up.

High Peaks wrote:

strumminsix wrote:Don't forget - despite whatever the venue says it's not your job to fill all the seats. PERIOD.

The venue has to establish themselves as a good live music room, do their own promo, set fair prices, etc.

I agree with that for the most part. On the flip side of that, I have known a lot of bands who think they are superstars(rather than the basement noodlers they are) and expect to get paid big $$$ just to show up.

Very much agree with that too. I am not saying a band doesn't have to do their part. It's the bands responsibility to:
- be well prepared for the show
- play well
- promote the show to their fans
- have good promo - for a small live music bar we send over 10 11x17 full color posters. Medium 12. Larger 15 (not needed more yet )
- talk up future shows at gigs (not over the mics, show some class. unless it's the next time you'll be back at that venue)
- maintain a proper email list that sends updates in logical intervals so folks actually read them
- maintain a website - myspace/facebook work just fine now and are free
- be somewhat active on social networks (MS, FB, twitter)
- if it's a new bar for your band ask some friends to come out for support

I guess after 10+ years of gigging I kinda take these things for granted.

willmusic - you're from Central VA? where exactly? I'm just a bit southwest of you in Blacksburg. What's your band's name?

My theory has always been a fist show at any new venue, town, etc is a risk for both players and venue owners. Both have to accept some of the risk i.e. some sort of guarantee from the owners so that you don't wind up paying to play (or paying that much) and that the players are willing to accept not making a ton of money the first time out. Copping an attitude about money doesn't help unless the venue really, really wants you. Thankfully, I am not the one in my band put in charge of business decisions or else we would wind up paying people to play at their clubs

Some venues have a built in audience that comes out no matter who is playing, some don't and your name recognition is everything - changing your band name to "Free beer and naked women" might help

it's a crapshoot - I never have any idea before playing a gig even in my hometown whether we'll have 40 people and make 30 bucks each or 400 and make 300 bucks each. When we go out of town I am amazed that anyone has heard of us but being in a college town and being here for so long it has helped.

Where you get some bargaining power is after one or two really successful shows at a place you can start asking for more because it is in the venue's best interest to have you there and to pay more to make it happen. It takes time and dues paying but if you start from a place of enjoying doing for free in front of nobody everything on top of that is a blessing.

Casually fiddle w/ a very sharp hatchet or boot knife while discussing terms. If it doesn't fluster them they'll probably respect you for being as crazy as they are. Win-Win.

tcsned wrote:My theory has always been a fist show at any new venue, town, etc is a risk for both players and venue owners. Both have to accept some of the risk i.e. some sort of guarantee from the owners so that you don't wind up paying to play (or paying that much) and that the players are willing to accept not making a ton of money the first time out. Copping an attitude about money doesn't help unless the venue really, really wants you. Thankfully, I am not the one in my band put in charge of business decisions or else we would wind up paying people to play at their clubs

You missed WM's key words, "invite to play". Therefore the club-owner should assume the risk. To your point, tcsned, if WM's band was looking to expand into new markets then I'd agree on a shared risk or low-pay, etc.


Too many bar owner don't create a room or environment conducive to live music. This is frustrating alot of bands out there. It's not a tough equation what the average bar/small club needs to do: have decent live bands 1-2x a week, drink specials, low cover, open mics, a good juke-box, and a friendly staff who will encourage folks to have fun and pour a few free drinks.

strumminsix - you're right, I didn't see the "invited by" in that case I would do my best to make it a profitable venture especially since it's kind of a long haul - like I said, there's a good reason why I don't generally handle band business

I also agree about the problems with the clubs out there - live music in bars has become a real tough game to eek out a living. It never was an easy life but I, of modest ability, made a decent living at it for years. Part of it is the drinking age - if 18 year olds could drink, problem solved. Bars would have more business than they'd know what to do with. Part of it is the way clubs are managed. You're exactly right, it's not a difficult equation - except that very few get it right. It seems that club owners live at the extreme ends of things - either they are so generous to bands and such that they go out of business, or they're the guy who will make copper wire fighting you over a penny and good bands stop playing there, and they go out of business. End result is the same.