Grateful Dead Music Forum

Can anyone shed some light on what is going on musically during the extended jams in the Playing in the Band's, Truckin's, of course Dark Star, etc. From what I have gathered it seems like a lot of minor stuff. Garcia seems to be doing some Dorian runs, but I'm lost with the rest of the band. I can't figure out what Weir, Phil, piano, are doing. I recently saw Dark Star and was almost certain at the time that they weren't even playing in a certain key, but it of course sounded great. Any info would be helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteelYerFace
Good start here .....

Find stuff and watch - like The Dead Movie bonus DVD.Over and over.
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dleonard wrote: I can't figure out what Weir, Phil, piano, are doing. I recently saw Dark Star and was almost certain at the time that they weren't even playing in a certain key, but it of course sounded great. Any info would be helpful.

There probably was structure even in the spacey parts....
A rhyme and a reason ...
Its good to think about what the other players are doing but dont let it stop you from learning your specific part first.
There is really no simple answer to your question. Tape a band practice and start working on what worked and what didnt.
Plus a guy like Jerry really has a handle on music theory - get some too !

you can characterize it conceptually as moving in and out of maj, minor and mixolodian scales.

the larger perpsective, though, is that they're really listening to each other and having a conversation, responding to the developing mood as a body.

on the more mundane end, here are a couple of riffs, theme, etc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVTTUCyI ... annel_page

fun stuff,

terry

thanks alot. two good vids

It's difficult to pin these jams down. Refering to the Truckin' jam and using EU '72 as a template, yes, it seems that very soon after the last verse they modulate away from the key of E (E ionian) to the key of D (E dorian). It is amazing how much they can milk it to ratchet up the jam. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that each member contributes only small fragments of entire chords which allows for a somewhat nebulous key definition. Garcia is suspended on the A and D strings, noodling at around the 12th and 14th frets, with reaches to the 11th fret to get the whole scale in on the G string. Weir is still on the E chord, I think I have this right, but he is using an E7 since the E would sound too pure for the theme of "Truckin." It may be that the E7 chord allows the E dorian to cook, but I'm not that up on my theory, yet. One thing I am sure about, though, is that when Epilogue comes in they are very free form, in some sort of minor chord theme, but it is so fragmented that Garcia can switch in and out of which minor he's building off of. So he's playing with several scales, most likely wondering, himself, where he'll finally take it. Weir sets up with what appears to me to be a C#m followed by a Bm (this is Epilogue still), but this could be a fragmented E to Bm, just the middle strings up around the 9th and 7th frets.

They played together so much that the only difficulties were Weir's being able to fragment the chords far enough to then recover the chords but then in a different mode to make the change in key as seamless as possible.

Yeah, so, snowed in the last few days...
Started "doing the math"... as a way of trying to simplify the "jams" man.
O.K., so I have a 24 fret guitar.
6 strings.
6x24=144 (this is the same as 12x12="1 Gross", for us "lot number" based employees).
Cool, only 144 possible notes to any Dead jam!
O.K.
ROTB, We can divide that by 2 because it repeats identically after the 12th fret.
144/2=72 Cool!
O.K. Well, there are two octaves from the Low E to the High E, and we already know how to navigate the 2nd string, so we can divide by two again.
72/2=36 notes that we need to know.
O.K., Uhh, the first and last note are the same note, so let's subtract 1.
36-1=35.
Now I'm thinking, there are 8 notes in the Do-Re-Me thing, and again, the first and last notes are the same, so lets subtract 1 and divide by 7.
36-1=35
35/7=5
Hey, that 7 we divided by also corresponds to the 7 Modes.
That 5 the we ended up with?... The 5 chord shape positions [CAGED] and related scales.
Cool!

So now I've got 6 strings, with 2 octaves (16 notes of the Major scale) within each chord shape.
Each chord shape runs a span of ~4 frets.
I notice I only have to learn one octave (strings 1-3) for each Chord Shape position, and the same scale pattern not only repeats (on a different group of strings) when I start an octave up/down, but it also shifts me to the next Chord shape position.
When I think of the scale patterns in groups of two strings (1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6) I am seeing identicle patterns all over the place!
'Never occurred to me like that before.
I'm thinkin'... I shoulda went to work!
So then I went downstairs and jammed with a few selections from the first set of the Closing of Winterland dvd.
~pb

how does this scale fit in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRUNKuuD ... -fresh+div



t

trking8 wrote:how does this scale fit in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRUNKuuD ... -fresh+div



t

TK, I'm not sure what you are really asking?
But fwiw, the guy plays the entire segment between frets 5-12.
7-frets x 6-strings = 42 possible notes total.
I thought he did en axcellent job of explaining soloing over that progression.
All of my I-Vi-II-V, and III-Vi-II-V expierience is with Western Swing music, played on Pedal Steel Guitar.
"Doing the Math" on Pedal Steel makes guitar playing look easy! And it is for the most part.
But yeah, whatever system a guy can get to work as a means of simplifying the "jam" is cool with me!

Another observation:
Bobby usually plays 3-4 note partial chords.
Jerry usually plays single notes.
Phil usually plays single notes.
Keyboard players usually play 3 notes per hand.
'Looks like at any time in any jam there are really only about a dozen notes floating on the wind.

Pete B. wrote: Keyboard players usually play 3 notes per hand.

There's a great quote from Brent from the early 80s to the effect that he didn't realize how dense and thick a simple triad sounded until he started playing with the Dead.