Grateful Dead Music Forum

ok, so I remember various interviews with jerry in the 80's where he talked about listening a lot to jazz horn players.

where is this most obvious in his playing -- late JGB stuff?

looking to expand, stretch a little.

t

trking8 wrote:interviews with jerry in the 80's where he talked about listening a lot to jazz horn players.

where is this most obvious in his playing -- late JGB stuff?

I'd say from the very dawn of the Grateful Dead is when Jerry began to incorporate lots of horn inspiration, in his lines and in those early brassy overdriven amp tones. All the primal stuff, say 67-70 is very horn-like imho especially prominent when he was playing his string of Gibsons, but really carrying on throughout his career.

It definitely showed throughout the years. Some of his midi'd out stuff, of course, was very horn inspired. An example of this that sticks out in my mind is during the Let It Grow on Without A Net. Pretty nice Spanish-flavored "horns" on there. I actually play that part sometimes when we do the song.

ive also thought that around 67-68 jerrys tone was quite hornlike. although i cant say i hear that much later on

Yeah, come to think of it, on early versions of The Other One for example, Jerry's parts could have easily been adapted to a sax or something of the like.

I'd say the real edgy stuff started developing right around the time of Howard Wales and Merl Saunders. By 1973 Jerry's phrasing was distinctly different. His arpeggios became much more extended and he would really work those 'outside ' chord tones the way a horn player would. Between Wales, Saunders and Vassar Clemens, I'd say Garcia was getting an earful of melody and it started to show by 73'-74'.

In an interview from 1981 he cites Clarence White and Ornette Coleman as influences...

Miles Davis and crew.
When the Bitches Brew Band OPENED for the Dead was supposedly a big moment for the band. The Miles stuff has been released;not too sure about the Deads;I'm sure its out there ....
Even before that though stuff like DarkStar mimic stuff like Miles Davis Kind of Blue - big jams over few chord changes.
Maybe check out Kind of Blue - its got Jerry approved tunes like So What ......
A big weakness of mine is cramming too many notes into spaces where the dont belong - riff after riff - but when I listen to Jerry he "waits" for the spaces he holds back he puts the emphasis somehow on the spaces between notes.
I guess I'm saying I like how he phrases his riffs.
It reminds me of horn/sax stuff.
Also his rhythm on the verse of One More Sat Night could be seen as James Brown type horns ...

From what I've read they were all introduced to Coltrane from Phil. Certainly later Ornette Coleman and his lack traditional song structure. And of course Miles Davis. Jerry talks about learning from Miles the notes NOT to play- the spaces in between notes or negative space as just as important as what is played. Clearly for a guy schooled in the tradition and discipline of bluegrass music, jazz offered another world of wide open influence. Additionally, I think his guitar tone (even before the midi years) has a tone rolled back, horn-like sound to it. But I would say the main influence jazz had on him was attitude and approach to song structure and modes.

jerry also claimed that he would go through a period of one specific technique. I thought he said that he did a year, or a tour, playing nothing shorter than a half note. sounds very hard to believe that he even got through one show that way...

t

I agree with Johnarobb. I think Wales and Merl had the largest direct influence on him. If you listen to the JGB stuff around 78-80-81, that was some of his best playing in my opinion. Just tight runs with killer expression.

I have heard of him mentioning Ornette Coleman and Coltrane.

In one of the Bio's jerry's mother came to a show and told him his guitar sounded like a horn. Just the tone he was after

Ive never really thought about it, but there is a lot of horn related influence in some Jerry-isms. Its something Ive been working on a lot lately, getting more horn influence. Good stuff. Been hitting the real book and learning some horn tunes, especially the head you can get some nice innovative phrasing that I would have never had thought about playing. Even something like the head to "Straight No Chaser" . . . . . OK, so Monk played piano but horn players play it all the time and its suited well for horns.

His tone always struck me as horn-ish more than guitar-ish.

The lick Jerry does at the beginning of MNS is a classic horn section lick.
Very Cool!

Black Throated Wind's intro is Horn-ish.

Tennessee Jedi wrote:Black Throated Wind's intro is Horn-ish.

I agree, BTW could easily have had a Mexican-esque trumpent section intro (similar to Mexicali Blues).
I regularly get an overwhelming desire to sing "I left St.Louie, city of Blues" with a Freddy Fender accent.
I picked up a Freddy Fender greatest hits in a bargain bin, and have enjoyed it very much. Wasted Days and Wasted Nights would have made a great Jerry G JGB cover! I'll Be There Untill The Last Teardeop Falls would have made a great Bobby country number.
But I digress...


Jerry speaks of Buck Ownes as another of his influences, saying Bucks "Together Again" led him to playing Pedal Steel.