Grateful Dead Music Forum

hey all
new poster here though Ive been finding useful tips on playing here for awhile now.
Been playing guitar for about 9 years now, and i used to play blues and rock exclusively; mainly grateful dead stuff. I have, however, over the past years, have been listening more and more to jazz and have fallen in love with it. I understand a lot of jazz theory, have taken many lessons, and obviously listen to the music, but I feel i play to much like a square. I cant swing and my phrasing for lack of a better word, sucks, and am looking to improve. Any jazz/deadheads out there with any tips?
thanks!

I'm not very schooled on the theory but I also love jazz and I think that one of the best things to do is get with a good drummer who is also into it and knows how to swing. Playing together a lot, even just the two of you, is a great way to find your way. I had the pleasure of having a bebop drummer as a good friend and room mate years ago, and playing with him helped me get the feel.

As for phrasing, keep listening to a lot of stuff. I guess one could do things mechanically from a music theory perspective, but I have always thought that you have to have what you want to play in your head and be able to get that out through the instrument.

I remember in college when I started getting heavy into jazz I had the same issues. I think the phrasing difficulties some of us have is due to the nature of the instrument we play, guitar. We spend so much time working on our patterns, scales, arpeggios, which is all well, good and necessary but that tends to hinder our phrasing. There is help.

A great teacher I had back then showed me a few tricks that really pushed the boundaries of my playing. First off, go to Jamey Aebersold's site and get a couple of the play along books. Fins something you like, basically a few songs you wouldn't mind paying over and over again. It's a good idea getting something modal and something "rhythm changes".

http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant ... ode=AEBPLA

Before even listening to these, change what you listen to for a few weeks. Trust me it is the key element. Spend a lot of time listening to horn players, Trane, Miles, Dolphy, Freddie Hubbard, Wayne Shorter. Do your best to absorb the space and time they fill. If you hear something that blows you away, transcribe it. Whether it's a riff or an entire solo just figure it out on the guitar. Chances are, it will be a lick you never thought of playing. The more you do this kind of stuff, you will find it popping up in your playing all the time.

Some technical tricks. When practicing on the guitar, tape down the 5th, 3rd, and 1st string. Don't play those strings at all. This will help your intervals get larger, something us guitar players have mucho difficulty with. Do the same with 6th, 4th, and 2nd.

You can also tape down all the stings but 1st and 2nd. This will help you play more laterally, up and down the neck as opposed to locking down in one position. Another limitation a lot of guitar players, again, due to the layout of the instrument and how we learn our scales.

My personal favorite was when I transcribed Miles' first solo on "So What" from Kind of Blue. It was easy to transcribe but it has carried me eons as far as developing my phrasing.

Best of luck.

That's some good advice from CF 9.5 and Emoto. I also lived with a bebop drummer and playing along with him on tunes was a big help. I'm no jazzer, and I play piano, not guitar, but those posts are right on. I would simply add that (assuming you have a lot of time to study) it's smart to listen to great horn players a lot, as CF said.

I'd just add that piano players also are worth really listening to, especially because the ability to phrase licks is infinite in that there's no breathing involved. Some folks to study would be Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans (from a bebop perspective) and Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, Joe Zwinal (sp) and Herbie Hancock from a more modern/fusion perspective. Of course there's a TON of others who are worth studying but those are a few I think have their own styles worth really digging into.

Some day when I get really motivated I need to do more of that myself.

mttourpro wrote: I'd just add that piano players also are worth really listening to, especially because the ability to phrase licks is infinite in that there's no breathing involved. Some folks to study would be Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans (from a bebop perspective) and Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, Joe Zwinal (sp) and Herbie Hancock from a more modern/fusion perspective. Of course there's a TON of others...

It's Zawinul... also, McCoy Tyner, Earl Hines, Red Garland, Dave Brubeck, Ahmad Jamal and THELONIUS.

Listening to horn players and pianists is definitely great advice - many guitarists have trouble transitioning to jazz because out tried and true "guitar-centric" riffs don't really translate well. However, here is some more advice that may help you along.

As for phrasing, when starting out in jazz improv, it is usually best to stick to the song's melody line and just work off of that for your solo. Along with helping you to learn to play more melodically, it will also help give you a better idea for jazzier note choices. My suggestion would be to pick a few standards, and learn the chord changes AND get the single note melody line down pat. Then, once you know it cold, start embellishing it a little bit. Use chromatic notes, arpeggios, slurs, ties, octave displacement, all that good stuff to make it yours. And listen to VOCALISTS as well - many jazz players will tell you that you can learn everything you need to know about phrasing by studying Sinatra.

Also, a huge part of the jazz sound comes from the idea of chord / scale substitution. If you aren't familiar with this concept, you will need to be. Very rarely does a jazz soloist just play strictly to the chord diatonically. You will need a working knowledge of modal playing, and at least a few of the basic substitution ideas to sound more authentic. Here's a few of my favorites -

1. Use of the V minor over a dominant seventh chord - just listen to Wes Montgomery for like 30 seconds and you will hear this, lol. For example, if you are trying to solo over a G7 chord, play D minor ideas. This is very common in jazz.

2. Judicious use of harmonic minor scales in appropiate places. For instance, in a minor blues, the main changes will go iim7b5 - V7alt - i minor. Lets use Bm7b5 - E7#9 - Aminor7 as examples. Over both the iim7b5 and the V7alt chords, you may use the I harmonic minor scale, and then when you get to the i minor chord, switch to the straight i minor scale. THIS WILL SOUND AWESOME if you do it smoothly.

Harmonic minors built from the I7 chord in a jazz blues also sound great in bars 9 & 10 of the progression. For instance, in G Blues, when you get to the Aminor7 chord in bar 9 ( the ii minor chord ), and the D7 chord in bar 10, play the G Harmonic minor scale over it, trying to emphasize the "correct" note choices for each chord, respectively.

3. USE YOUR ARPEGGIOS!!!!!!!

Hope you find some of this useful - good luck!

wow, i did not except that many responses. Thanks a lot for the pointers! you guys are great!

Ive been dabbling in jazz too and its a GREAT way to break free of stereotypical guitarist riffs that are bland. Get a Real Book. That so far has been the best purchase of my life. Learning to read and learning to break out of guitar based stuff is priceless. Listening has been stressed already but it cant be stressed enough. MIles, Trane, Thelonius, Tyner . . . . all great people to study from.

The sound is just so different. The best thing that every happened to me as a guitarist was to hook into an awesome sax player who opened my eyes to stuff. And learning from the real book is awesome. Im learning Straight No Chaser right now by Monk and its crazy. The phrasing is nothing that I would have ever dreamed. The first couple of times I play it I think I must be reading it wrong . . . . but no . . . . Im reading it right.

The feel is the hardest thing to get. I too am blessed by being able to play with great musicians, the aforementioned sax player, a great drummer who can play all styles and most recently a tremendous jazz bassist. They help with the feel. But listening to the recordings and playing is where its at. Ive found a particular challenge in playing "Straight No Chaser" because you have to nail the feel and the tempo. Just reading isnt enough . . . . you can read notes and timing but you cant read feel. Listening is the only way to feel the notes. Listen and then go at it with a metronome for an hour. Then go back to listen and repeat the process. Keep repeating until you have it down.

Jazz is the greatest thing that has ever happened to my playing. It totally has opened me up to different things and phrasing. When I hear Monk playing I cant believe how hip that it. How sharp, how percussive, how rhythmic how intentional . . . . . I say the best thing for a jazz guitarist to do is to emulate great jazz piano players. Those are the people that you need to follow . . . . . the best thing a jazz guitarist can learn to do is comp.

I faked up an arrangement of Miles Davis' "Footprints" that I like jamming to. Couldn't say that it is correct or anything, but it is a good jamming tune. 3/4 time makes it that much more interesting. The trick is finding a drummer who can swing with a wide gate, if you know what I mean.