Grateful Dead Music Forum

Hey all -

Contemplating the purchase of '94 Blues Deluxe. Not what I'd hoped for, but my finances are limited for now, and I want to get beyond the SS power amp portion of my TubeDriver to get to a more genuine Fender sound (without popping a ball hauling gear!).

I'm looking at a modified amp with the filter caps replaced with F&T's and the tone caps replaced with orange drops. It's also had a bias pot added (currently running Winged C 6L6GC's).

Also had a busted spring on the original reverb.. replaced with an Accutronics tank.

This is a guy who I trust has done right by this amp, but he's asking $500.

Thinking I'll replace the stock Eminence speaker with a Tone Tubby Alnico and probably build an extension cab for an additional TT or maybe an E120.

Whatcha think?

I almost bought one of these amps but saved 300 more bucks and got a Deluxe reverb instead. Love it! I don't think you can go wrong w/a tube amp and the Blues Deluxe is a very nice sounding amp.IMO-Good Luck

Blues Deluxes' are pretty nice sounding amps, but $500 for one is a bit steep, imho. I would suggest that if you are looking for a high quality, good sounding, built like a tank tube amp around 40 watts, look into a Traynor Custom Valve 40. They can be had on ebay pretty regularly.

Another good option is a Carvin Belair 50.

Sorry to disagree but I can't at all second your views on the build quality of new Traynors (now if we're looking at the old ones, there's no better deal on a PTP JTM-meets Hiwatt than a silver-trim Traynor YBA-1; I own one m'self for this reason).

Happen to know more about the early Blues Deluxe runs that I would like to know. $500 is not excessive for one with the mods and replaced components you mention. In fact, I'd warn you away from the amp completely were it not for the fact that someone before you has already upgraded most if not all of the crap in it before you.

The bias pot addition really transforms the amp. Fender shipped the amp colder than the Mars polar cap (approx. 25 ma). Up the bias to 35 ma and you won't believe the difference. A properly-biased BD can hold its own with any BF Fender in many folks' views.

With the upgrades, the amp could work for you. It certainly has a fine tone. If you buy it, though, if not already done, you MUST go over every solder joint in the amp carefully, reflowing those that even smell potentially cold, and also absolutely replace all of the input jacks. Those are two weak points of the '93-'95 BD's.

This being said, after my own 94 crapped out on me for the upm-teenth time, I [amp tech Pete Cage of Cage Amplifiers did the actual work] completely gutted it, except for the transformers (which I find remarkably good-sounding and performing) and rebuilt it as a PTP Bandmaster-alike (not a clone - some circuit enhancements are added). Man, does it sound wonderful now and is bulletproof!

Pictures are worth a thousand words:

P.S. Not that you asked specifically, but in case you're interested, here is Fender amp specialist Steve Dallman's take on the differences between the BD and next-generation Hot Rod Deluxe. I've traded emails and calls with Steve on various Fender amp issues over the years - he's the best.

"HOT ROD VS BLUES DELUXE/DEVILLE

The first stages are classic Fender except the BD uses a 22uf cathode bias cap while the HR uses a larger 47uf, which will create a bit more low end.

Coupling cap next is .01BD Vs .022 in HRD. Still a little more low end in the HR. The bright switch in the BD is next. This is a non-standard Fender design, which bypasses a 100k resistor with a 750pf cap. As the 100k resistor is attached to the 250k-volume control, it is only effective in clean mode. The drive control in the HR is between the first and second stage.

The second stage is unbypassed in both amps. In the HR the bright switch is a .068 cathode bypass cap that is non-functioning in drive mode.

The tone stack follows the second stage. They are identical except the HR uses a 130k mid slope resistor, while the BD is 100k. This will create a little less low end in the HR.

The drive control precedes the 3rd stage in the BD, a standard Fender bypassed gain stage. The 3rd stage is used in both clean and drive in the BD.

In the HR the 3rd and 4th stages are used in drive only. This tube is unbypassed. In More drive a 1uf-bypass cap is switched in on the 3rd stage and a 22uf bypass cap is switched in on the 4th stage. (The 4th stage is not used in the BD, but is just waiting to be modded in.)

Note on bypassing. The gain in a tube stage is set by 3 components, the plate resistor, (typically 100k in Fenders, larger for more gain) the cathode resistor, (typically 1.5k in Fenders, smaller for more gain) and a bypass cap that bypasses the cathode resistor. The cathode cap is not always used but when it is, it will increase gain in different frequency ranges. 22uf will increase gain across the entire guitar spectrum. Smaller will only raise gain in higher frequencies.

The master for the drive channel follows in both amps. From there the amps are nearly identical, except the HR has somewhat fuller reverb due to the design of the reverb return. (The reverb circuit and the effects loop are solid state.) The HR has an extension speaker jack that uses the 4-ohm speaker tap on the output transformer. The BD has this tap but it is not used (but could be added by a tech.)

In general these amps are similar. The BD will not stay as clean at higher volumes due to the 3rd stage always being active. The HR has “improved” distortion (drive) with “more drive” added. The HR has fuller reverb and an extension speaker jack. Both are good designs with plenty of classic Fender tone.

May I add that improvements can be made to the Blues. The earliest Blues Deville's used the 2nd stage of V2 as a cathode follower just before the PI. In all but the earliest, the 2nd half of V2 isn't used. This can be modded into the drive channel for huge improvement. (See the Blues Deluxe mod in the Technical section at Duncan Amp Pages...)

The reverb can be improved by clipping C50. Bias adjust can be easily added.

Part 2

The two are similar in some ways and quite different in others. The obvious differences are the drive channel and "more" drive. Both amps are sort of takes on a 59 Bassman according to Fender with the added drive, reverb and effects loop. That may be a stretch. "Normal" Fenders, such as bf and sf Twins, Bandmasters, Bassmans, Deluxe Reverbs and the like have a gain stage, the tone stack (which introduces a lot of signal loss) and then a recovery gain stage. From there there will be a mixing stage for the channels and reverb and on to the power amp.

In the BD and HRD there are 2 gain stages preceding the tone stack. This helps create the blusier preamp breakup similar to a 59 Bassman. The tone stacks are sort of a cross between a 59 Bassman and a standard Fender. Next comes the drive stage. In the BD it is a rather anemic single tube stage. In the HRD both halves of V2 are used. In the BD there is half a tube unused. How much you like the distortion in either amp is really a matter of taste.

The reverb in the BD is thin, the HRD corrected this a little. Fortunately, it is easy to improve the BD. The effects loop is pretty much the same with each. I like the loop design. It is out of the circuit until you plug into the power amp return. The loop is between the preamp and the phase inverter. The send lowers the level, which is very high here and would distort any effect, and it lowers impedance. The return provides a high impedance in and raises the gain back to the tube level. Fender used a good op amp and the design is good. When I first tried a BD I was disappointed with the drive and the reverb. But I did think the amp even sounded better with a cord patched into the effects loop. Go figure.

The BD needs a bias control. It also has an unused 4 ohm speaker tap that can be added by copying the circuit in the HRD. A fairly strange jack is needed. Stewart-McDonald and Mouser both sell a 9 terminal switching stereo jack that will work. The switch in the jack has to change BOTH the speaker and external speaker jacks from the 8 ohm tap to the 4 ohm tap when an extension speaker is plugged in. I did this. I also added bias adjusts for both output tubes.

I tried some other things. I tried a pentode/triode switch. In triode the volume drops as the power is reduced. I hated the tone as it sounded like I put a box over the amp. So in the switch hole I put in a resonance control which removes the negative feedback on the low end, much like the presence removes the NFB on the high end. I really like it, but I may replace the pot with a switch.

The drive channel was another matter. I think it could be helped with the addition of a couple of clipping diodes. But not everyone wants SS clipping in a tube amp. I found a mod in Duncan Amp Pages in the Technical section. Andy Marshman (Gunny on FDP) wrote up a mod using the unused 1/2 of V2. It adds tons of distortion, enough for the most severe metalhead. But the best tones lie in the lower gain settings where some great crunch to overdrive, mod focused and lively tones live. There is a lot of gain thrown away through a 1 meg and 2 meg padding resistor. I may replace the 2 meg with a 3 trimpot tone stack. Then I could preset the distortion tone.

All in all, after the few mods, I can't think why I would want a HRD. The HRD is a more refined BD but I guess rather than refinement, I would rather mod an amp to what I want. I am primarily a bass player though and the amp doesn't get used much.

The More drive in the HRD simply adds cathode bypass caps to the cathode resistors in V2, the drive tube. The first cap adds a little gain and high end boost. The second boosts gain across the frequency spectrum. If the More drive is too intense the second cap should be lowered from 22uf to perhaps 4.7uf.

There are other differences. The bright switches are different. Neither are like the usual Fender bright switches. There are some other minor differences, but one is not superior to the other."

Chuckles wrote:Thinking I'll replace the stock Eminence speaker with a Tone Tubby Alnico ...

Speaker choices are always a matter of personal taste. That being said, for me, the TTA would be too dark for this amp, at least if you're after classic Fender BF/SF sparkle. I have a Reverend All-Tone in my rebuilt BD but it was in mine before I rebuilt it, also. It is a Jensen-style speaker but with a seamed British cone and works extremely well in that amp.

Another excellent choice that I've heard personally in a BD is a Weber ceramic Silver Bell. It, too, has a seamed cone. Don't be fooled by the website description of the speaker as having "classic Marshall tone," it flat out fits the BD. Because they're overbuilt/rated, you can go for either a 30W or 50W version with the BD (go for the 50W if you like to pummel your amp's input with pedals, especially if they include a compressor) and specify light or moderate doping (to minimize potential cone cry).

You guys know your sh-t,THANKS,
Jon S do you have a shop in NYC?

For less than that money I just bought a used Fender Hot Rod DeVille 212.

Id say that would be the better option, as far as Im concerned. A little more power, a little more headroom, and some nice tone.

I have it in the shop now. Needs a little bit of work but Im sure it will be fine.

Edit: Or even a Blued DeVille as compared to the Blues Deluxe.

Jon S. wrote:Sorry to disagree but I can't at all second your views on the build quality of new Traynors (now if we're looking at the old ones, there's no better deal on a PTP JTM-meets Hiwatt than a silver-trim Traynor YBA-1; I own one m'self for this reason).

Happen to know more about the early Blues Deluxe runs that I would like to know. $500 is not excessive for one with the mods and replaced components you mention. In fact, I'd warn you away from the amp completely were it not for the fact that someone before you has already upgraded most if not all of the crap in it before you.

The bias pot addition really transforms the amp. Fender shipped the amp colder than the Mars polar cap (approx. 25 ma). Up the bias to 35 ma and you won't believe the difference. A properly-biased BD can hold its own with any BF Fender in many folks' views.

With the upgrades, the amp could work for you. It certainly has a fine tone. If you buy it, though, if not already done, you MUST go over every solder joint in the amp carefully, reflowing those that even smell potentially cold, and also absolutely replace all of the input jacks. Those are two weak points of the '93-'95 BD's.

This being said, after my own 94 crapped out on me for the upm-teenth time, I [amp tech Pete Cage of Cage Amplifiers did the actual work] completely gutted it, except for the transformers (which I find remarkably good-sounding and performing) and rebuilt it as a PTP Bandmaster-alike (not a clone - some circuit enhancements are added). Man, does it sound wonderful now and is bulletproof!

Pictures are worth a thousand words:

Excellent job by Cage. Curious as to what circuit he used as a template. Is that first preamp tube a 12AY7 or 12AX7?

FWIW, stay away from anything HOT ROD, 65' Re-Issue, Super Sonic or any new Fender for that matter. You'll end up spending more money for service and to keep the thing going than you will enjoying any aspect of it. Unless you're just playing around at home infrequently. With the exception of a complete rebuild as in Jon S's amp above, I'd stay away from them completely.

Fender, unfortunately, is now synonymous with junk. The name is just that, a name. They're just banking on the name. What they make are amps of such poor quality, with computer grade components, and cabinets literally made of recycled sawdust, that it's become almost embarrassing to own one.

There's a dozen or so great low priced all-tube 1x12 combos on the market that are built on the old Fender circuit platform with 10x the durability, quality of components and tone.

In the budget bracket, The Kustom Defender or The Peavey Valveking will get you closer to the original tone of, say, a Deluxe Reverb or Tweed Pro, etc...

I service amps for a living. Fender is paying my Mortgage in the amount of amps I have to repair for them. Please don't get me wrong. I have a bevy of old Twin Reverbs that I love. And I was sold on the folklore as well. And then I realized what a scam it was.

Thanks for the many replies! I actually bought and gigged with it over the weekend, and it's pretty sweet to my ears.

Wow, Jon.. you did some major work on that puppy. I've got a TTA I can borrow to try out before getting one, so I'll check it out. I also was looking at the Webbers.

I ruled out the Hot Rods out of hand; I've got a buddy who just got rid of a HRD that had been a pita for two years. I played through it a number of times and absolutely hated it.

Thx again for the input, guys!

Hey jonarob,

Out of curiosity, what sort of problems do you encounter with the HOT ROD series?

Ive owned two in my time and Ive been pretty happy with them. The one I have now is in the shop though, for a microphonic power tube, the previous owner's doing.

One thing that I know Im gonna want to do is provide some foam insulation for the output tubes, as they are really just getting blasted from the speakers.

I figured it was a decent buy, made in america, not mexico for what thats worth.

Any suggestions on what I can do to give it some longevity?

I was also looking at changing the way the volume is in it . . . making it linear instead of log to get it a little softer.

CaptainTrips wrote:Hey jonarob,

Out of curiosity, what sort of problems do you encounter with the HOT ROD series?

Ive owned two in my time and Ive been pretty happy with them. The one I have now is in the shop though, for a microphonic power tube, the previous owner's doing.

One thing that I know Im gonna want to do is provide some foam insulation for the output tubes, as they are really just getting blasted from the speakers.

I figured it was a decent buy, made in america, not mexico for what thats worth.

Any suggestions on what I can do to give it some longevity?

I was also looking at changing the way the volume is in it . . . making it linear instead of log to get it a little softer.

Hi, yeah, sorry to come off sounding so down on the Hot Rod and Blues series, but the issues are numerous and significant. I use to tell myself, "Well, in that price range, what do you expect?" But then I started to see what other companies are offering for less and I started scratching my head.

I usually see them coming into the shop anywhere from 30 days to 2 years after purchase. The main culprit still, after numerous revisions from Fender to address it, are the overheating of the staging resistors for the channel switching matrix and reverb circuit. Eventually they get so hot they seperate from the PC board. This is more so with the amp that sees heavy use. Tied for first place are the input jacks fatiguing and after very little fanfare, seperating from the PC board. Then there's the fatiguing of the speaker jack. It's a cheap quality jack, as are the input and footswitch jacks. On the speaker jack and extension speaker jack the metal is of such poor quality that it oxidizes quickly and eventually the plug tip stops making good contact which at first leads to loss of power, intermittant output and finally the output transformer burning out. Then there are the cold solder joints on the B+ electrolytics. I stopped deeing this but for a while the power tube sockets were cracking from overheating. While I'm on it, the Groove Tubes that ship with Fender amps in particular seem to be even more bottom of the barrel than just the regular store bought ones. The preamp tubes become microphonic almost immediately. The power tubes are just junk to begin with so you can' fault how lifeless the amp sounds when it's new because it's not even running a real 6L6GC.

So besides my rant here, I can only suggest that you replace the staging resistors, input jacks, footswitch jack, speakers and tubes, preamp and power, immediately. You'll have to find a tech that can change the bias feed resistor so you can dial in the proper current draw on a set of actual 6L6GC's. As for speakers, the Eminence speakers that ship with the Hot Rods, et. al., seem to develop a coil rub after moderate playing within a year. They usually won't blow, although I've seen that, but will just sound like a cabinet vibration. You'll drive yourself insane tightening every screw down with a pneumatic torque gun before you realize your speaker coils are buzzing. Additionally, the surrounds dry out prematurely. Again, just low quality stuff. If you gig with it, bring a backup, preferably not a Fender.

For the record, The Hot Rod Series are assembled in Mexico made entirely from Asian parts. Includes Pro Jr., Blues Jr., Hot Rod Deluxe/Deville, Reissue Blues Deluxe/Deville. Those sawdust cabinets are made in Vietnam.

The Vintage Reissue Series are assembled in Corona, Calif. from Asian parts. Includes TRRI, SRRI, DRRI, PRRI, 59 Bassman LTD.

The Pro series and Custom shop series amps are made in Corona with the same parts from, you guessed it, Singapore, Vietnam, China, Taiwan, and Mexico.

Ive got the HotRod DeVille 60w...its amazing....everyone I play with remarks on it and they have twins and Mesa's.

Nothing sounds like a Fender..If i had the $1500 I would still go with the twin but mine is great.

jonarobb wrote: So besides my rant here, I can only suggest that you replace the staging resistors, input jacks, footswitch jack, speakers and tubes, preamp and power, immediately. You'll have to find a tech that can change the bias feed resistor so you can dial in the proper current draw on a set of actual 6L6GC's. As for speakers, the Eminence speakers that ship with the Hot Rods, et. al., seem to develop a coil rub after moderate playing within a year. They usually won't blow, although I've seen that, but will just sound like a cabinet vibration. You'll drive yourself insane tightening every screw down with a pneumatic torque gun before you realize your speaker coils are buzzing. Additionally, the surrounds dry out prematurely. Again, just low quality stuff. If you gig with it, bring a backup, preferably not a Fender.

What do you think all of that would cost?

seriously, why do all that to a so-so amp when for not much more you can get a delicious SF fender?!