Grateful Dead Music Forum

Hi guys, first time poster here. I've been a deadhead for many years, and have been playing the guitar for about 8. I'm solid on rhythm, but I'd like to start getting into leads. I have a very basic understanding of scales, but I do have a few questions I think would really help me.

I've heard people say before that if a song is in the key of say, G, you don't play a G scale. Rather, you play Em or something. If a song is in C, you play the A scale. I'm really confused by this, and if anyone could quickly tell me exactly what scales to play in what keys, that would go a long way in helping me.

When you're soloing in a song, and the song changes chords, do you change the scale you're playing? I can't think of a Dead song for an example, but say Mustang Sally. The chords are basically C and F. During the lead, do you actually change scales in accordance w/ the chord changes?

Finally, there seems to be so many different scales out there (major, minor, pentatonic, etc). Are there one or two that I should concentrate on, that would get me through most songs?

thanks guys. After a few months of finding this site, it's nice to finally be 'registered'!

Later.

First of all Welcome! I am by far not the most accomplished musician on this site but here is my two cents.

If a song is in the key of G then you want to use the notes of the G major scale (G,A,B,C,D,E,F#) You can play these notes from diffrent starting points. For the example you used Em. E minor has the same notes in it's scale as G does. You are just making the root note E. So the scale would be (E, F#, G,A,B,C,D) So if there is an Em chord in a song it is a good idea to use the E minor scale which is also in the major key of G. Penatonics are a little different becuase they only have 5 notes in the scale instead of 7. You leave out the IV and the vii of the major or minor scale. I wouldn't even worry about learning them becuase they don't offer you as many options in your playing and causes your leads to sound sort of similar all the time.

Now with chord changes it is a good idea to pay close attention to them with your lead playing. If a song goes from G to D you still want to play the notes of the G major scale just when the song changes chords you want to change the root note of your scale to D. Which would make it D mixolydian (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C). My biggest suggestion is to KNOW the melody of the song and try to play your leads to sound like the melody. Then try some variations with timing and runs.

Alright that was long winded and probably pretty confusing. Being as I don't play lead guitar but bass it may infact just be wrong. However that is the best I can do to explain it.

The minor scale, which is three steps down from the major scale is typically used for blues tunes. Since most of rock and roll comes from the blues then you will tend to use the minor scale more often then the major scale. A pop or fluffy (melody driven) tune will use just the major scale. It does not matter if there is a Em minor chord in a key of G tune but what does matter is the feel of the tune.
I mainly use the major and related minor scale (same thing 3 steps down) and the mixalodian sclale. Anything else I don't have room in my brain for.

I tend to use the caged system for playing leads (ie.. I learn the sclaes off of the E, A, and C moveable chord shapes although I like to think of them as the F,A, and D shapes) so when the chord changes to the 4th (from D to G) I just slide the D shape up to the G and play off it there. I will also alternate using differnt shapes the get that G scale (A shape at the 12th fret or the F shape on the 3rd or 15th fret). When you change scales you basically are playing a mixed scale so when your in the the 4th you play mostly what notes are in the the 1 and 4 and when in the 5th what notes are in the 1 and 5. There a few clunker notes that you can not play at any time unless of your playing jazz and can try to work a clunker into a nice transistion note or a double clunker (but thats way beyond where your at). Mostly in in blues based songs you will vary your lead scale while melody driven songs you tend to stick with the melody and thus the one scale.

My advise would be to learn the moveable chord positions and play your leads off of them while using your ear and listen to what notes sound right.

First off Welcome Terrapin! Ok as for your first question its really just an equivalent scale. G major is the SAME scale as E minor scale. Just starting on G instead of E get it? Same for C major is the same scale as A minor. So thats what they meant by that. But if it is in G they should have told you play G not E minor. Doesnt make much sense to me. Ok for your next question whether you change scales or not. Well that really all depends on the song and the progression. For somethin like C to F I would stay right on C. But you could change from C pentatonics to F pentatonics if you wanted. And finally I would learn ALL of your modes (major, minor, mixolydian, lydian, phrygian, locrian, dorian). Umm but if you want some good ones to start with then learn your pentatonic major and minor in all positions. Learn mixolydian, major, and minor in all positions. Thatll definitely give you a verrry broad amount of scales to use that will fit over most songs. Next Id learn Dorian. The most played scale for me is definitely Mixolydian, next would be pentatonics.

i have along the lines of the same question as teripan does. from what i understand from you guys is that the G major scale and the E minor scale use the same notes just in a different order. is that because E minor falls in the key of G (G,A minor,B minor, C, D, E minor). if that is the case can i play any of those scales and have it still sound right?

But hey i may be way off base

Alright here is the equivalent scales, maybe this will clear it up for you

This is for C Major

A Minor (also known as Aeolian), B Locrian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian

All of those scales are the same EXACT thing as C major. The only difference is where you start the scale. You start on a C you got C major. Start on a G you got G mixolydian. Get it?

Thanks guys. it's pretty confusing, but it's starting to make sense now. I guess the confusing part is when you pull up a site w/ a bunch of scales, they all look real similar, except for a note or two. But I"m starting to understand it all now!

I think a song like Masterpiece could be a good example for my questions. I've always played the chords G,D,C,(then moved up a step later to A). So, during the beginning of the song, Jerry would be soloing in what, G major? And when the chords change to D and C, is he still staying in the G scale, or changing to a D or C?

I appreciate the feedback. I guess after 8 years of playing rhythm, and 5 years playing in a band, I should finally figure this lead shit out! Thanks bros.

How do you play rhythm without knowledge of the scales?

kevo wrote:How do you play rhythm without knowledge of the scales?

I know every chord that I've ever needed to. But when the guys I were playing w/ would say 'take a lead', I'd be lost.

Here's a blues scale in G. The fingering is simple and it's pretty easy to get a blues sound right away with it. Record or have a friend play a simple blues progression and off you go. You can use the same scale for the whole progression. Just mess with it a little.

E|--------------------------------------3--6-----
B|--------------------------------3--6-----------
G|-----------------------3--5--6-----------------
D|-----------------3--5--------------------------
A|--------3--4--5--------------------------------
E|--3--6-----------------------------------------

kevo wrote:How do you play rhythm without knowledge of the scales?

Kevo, I don't find that ^^ question very helpful for what he's trying to figure out. Not everyone is where you are in terms of ability, knowledge, etc.


Playing lead can be complicated, especially at first.

But if you have a basic structure to work with, much like the foundation of a home, you can build on it slowly. Don't try to take it and build the entire home at once. Work on one room at a time, and after you've gotten the structure up, then work on adding shingles, paint, tiles, hardwood, etc. Dont'cha just love metaphores!?!?!

I believe that learning the Manjor & Minor Pentatonic scales first are the easiest way to understand the rest of them. First off, they are less complicated and do a great job at getting you started on the concept of playing lead. The reason is because in the most commonly used Minor scales (Dorian, Phrygian, & Aeolian) you will find the Minor Pentatonic scale, and in most commonly used Major scales (Ionian, Lydian, & Mixolydian) you will find the Major Pentatonic scale. To make/complete these scales in parenthesis (__), what you are doing is adding a note here or there to either the Major or Minor Pentatonic scales. Take a close look at them, you'll see what I mean.

I don't have the time to go into more explanation now, but if you PM me, I'd be more than happy to explain more when I have the time.

Also, you might try doing a search on this site for "scales", "modes", "soloing", or other "key words" because there is a TON of useful information that you'll find pertaining to this exact subject.

Terrapin wrote:

kevo wrote:How do you play rhythm without knowledge of the scales?

I know every chord that I've ever needed to. But when the guys I were playing w/ would say 'take a lead', I'd be lost.

Don't sweat it. I'm at the same point. When this happens, I shrug, give an embarrassed smile and shake my head 'no thanks'.

Practice, practice and practice. Maybe I should quit my job so I could devote more time to practice? :)

This was really helpful to me when i started. First i would learn all of your major scales cuz ull definitely need them. Then i would start playing the different modes, which is actually really easy. Say ur supposed to be playing A mixolydian. Well, an A mixolydian scale is just the major scale played from the fourth degree of the A major scale (D). So an A mixolydian scale is the same thing as a D major scale. Just remember that Mixolydian is played from the 4th degree (A mixo=D major), Ionian from the 1st (A ionian=A major), Lydian from the 5th (A Lydian= E major), Aeolian from the b3 (A Aeolian=C major), Locrian from the b2 (A Locrian=A# maj), Phrygian from the b6 (A phry=F maj), and Dorian from the b7 (A dorian=G maj). Then u got ur modes down

i think if you want to have it easy you can stay in your basic scale of the key, BUT you have to hit the root notes oo the chord changes...
maybe i'm wrong???

BigJilm wrote:This was really helpful to me when i started. First i would learn all of your major scales cuz ull definitely need them. Then i would start playing the different modes, which is actually really easy. Say ur supposed to be playing A mixolydian. Well, an A mixolydian scale is just the major scale played from the fourth degree of the A major scale (D). So an A mixolydian scale is the same thing as a D major scale. Just remember that Mixolydian is played from the 4th degree (A mixo=D major), Ionian from the 1st (A ionian=A major), Lydian from the 5th (A Lydian= E major), Aeolian from the b3 (A Aeolian=C major), Locrian from the b2 (A Locrian=A# maj), Phrygian from the b6 (A phry=F maj), and Dorian from the b7 (A dorian=G maj). Then u got ur modes down

Hey BigJim, I think you've got your Lydian & Mixolydian mixed up....

Lydian is the 4th degree of the Major scale and Mixolydian is the 5th.

But to sum it up, there are 7 modes in the Major scale:

I - Ionian (Major scale)
ii - Dorian (minor scale)
iii - Phrygian (minor scale)
IV - Lydian (Major scale)
V - Mixolydian (Major scale, Jerry's favorite)
vi - Aeolian (minor scale)
vii - Locrian (diminished scale)

If we're using the key of D, then it would look like the following:

The D would be the I (Ionian, also sometimes just called the "major scale")

Em = ii (Dorian mode)

F#m = iii (Phrygian mode)

G = IV (Lydian mode)

A = V (Mixolydian mode)

Bm = vi (Aeolian mode)

C#dim = vii (Locrian mode)