Page 1 of 1

PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:32 am
by James-T
Someone over in the Bobby section was asking about PAF's. I've got this LP DC that I put a pair of vintage Gibson PAF's in and I was surprised to the Live Dead sounds I could get when running the LP through the Bogner Blue OD. The Bogner OD really makes the Vibrolux amp really come alive. Just to compare I noodled around afterwards on a guitar with a Super 2/ Dual Sound setup - not quite the same - and that Live Dead dark star is still my favourite Jerry tone for that particular song. The PAF probably dates back to 1964-65ish. I'm playing just the neck pickup and riding the tone pot up and down. The backing track is the LP with a hint of OD as well. Fun with Garage Band, iMovie and my iPhone. Caveat: my playing is no Garcia (or Weir) replication by any means - just noodling. :smile:

Peace,

James


Re: PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:11 pm
by TeeJay
Mind blown :hail:

Re: PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:06 pm
by chipperj
Real nice!

Re: PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:17 pm
by tatittle
PAF = alnico V; Super 2 = ceramic

Just as with speakers, different magnet material affects tone.

Re: PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:12 pm
by James-T
I did a lot of research before buying that vintage PAF.

Here's some trivia on PAF's:
Gibson Pickup Information: 1956 to Fall 1957: Original PAF. Long magnet, *no* PAF sticker, purple bobbin wire, black leads on both coils, phillips screws on base, ohms can run from 7k to high 9k ohms, black bobbins PAF style bobbins ("circle in a square"), "L" shaped tool marks on feet. PAFs were first installed on lapsteels in 1956. The long magnet dimensions are 2.5" long, .5" wide, about .125" thick. Fall 1957-1960: Original PAF. Long magnet, "Patent Applied For" (PAF) sticker, purple bobbin wire, black leads on both coils, nickel covers, phillips screws on base, ohms can run from low 7k to high 9k ohms, black bobbins PAF style bobbins ("circle in a square") until 1959 cream colored pickup bobbins are often seen, 'L' shaped toolmarks on feet. 1961-1962: last PAF pickups. Short magnet (starting July 1961), PAF sticker, purple wire, black leads on both coils, nickel covers, phillips screws on base, both bobbins are black again, PAF style bobbins ("circle in a square"), "L" toolmarks on feet. The short magnet dimensions are 2.37" long, .5" wide, about .125" thick (decreased magnet length 1/8"). 1962-1965: Early "patent no." sticker, nickel cover, short magnet, PAF style bobbins ("circle in a square"), redish/copper colored bobbin wire (probably happened in 1963), some point in here bobbin lead wires change to one black and one white, phillips screws on base. Plastic on bobbins more durable and bobbins are flat (PAF style pickups often have bowed pickup bobbins), "L" toolmarks on feet. Note the last version of the PAF (1961-1962) is basically identical to the nickle plated 1963 Patent# pickup (and on guitars with gold parts, probably as late as 1967 Patent# pickups are equivalent to 1961-1962 PAFs, since Gibson used less gold plated parts and inventories lasted longer). Because the wire color changed around 1963 from purple to a redish/copper color (and some other changes, listed above), technically the 1964-1965 Patent# pickups are different than the 1963 Patent# and late PAF pickups (though the tone is very similar). Also keep in mind gold plated PAFs used in archtop electric guitars (especially varitone guitars) can be seen as late as 1965 (yes PAFs as late as 1965!) The reason for this was simple - Varitone guitars had gold plated pickups with one pickup having a reversed magnet. This style of pickup was used far less than a nickel plated pickup. Hence these gold plated varitone equipped archtops are sometimes seen with one or two PAF pickups into 1965. 1965: Late "patent no." sticker with no T-top, covers are now chrome, orange wire, one white bobbin lead, short magnet, phillips screws on base, "L" toolmarks start to disappear off feet (but can be seen as late as 1972), ohms run pretty consistent at 7.5k ohms.
My PAF, technically a Patent # pick-up I guess, has the reddish copper wire with the black and white leads. In my travels the closet thing to that neck pick-up in my LP DC is a Bare Knuckles Stormy Monday (which sits in the bridge position of my PRS CU22). Here's what they have to say:
Authentically vintage in both voicing and output, the Stormy Monday humbucker is completely handwound with vintage correct 42 AWG plain enamel wire and handcrafted with butyrate bobbins, calibrated sand cast Alnico II magnet, solid nickel silver baseplate and cover.

As with the early 'Patent Applied For' humbuckers, the coils are wound asymmetrically for extended frequency response and touch sensitive feel. The Stormy Monday faithfully reproduces the tones of the brighter '57 & '58 era PAFs with smooth natural sustain, wonderful pick dynamics and string separation. Low notes have warmth and fullness; the highs are sweet and mellow while the mids are slightly scooped producing a soft, percussive vintage tone.
The owner of BKP emailed me right back when I enquired about the Stormy Monday, produced a version that would drop right in my PRS and it was at my door in a little over a week from England. Great service!

The one thing they say about vintage PAF's is the magnets mellow with time given them that ever so harmonically rich tone. But I think there are a lot of faithful recreations of the vintage correct PAF's out there. I just happen to like BKP's and really dig the tone of the true vintage pups (I have a T Top in my 1967 SG Junior that is also pretty sweet and true to the old school tone).

Peace,

James

Re: PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:36 pm
by Jon S.
Image

Re: PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:56 am
by zambiland
I don't know exactly when my pickups are from, but I have a 1956 ES140T that someone swapped out the pickups with a pair of early patent humbuckers (the one with the wrong number on them. It's a patent number for a trapeze tailpiece or something like that.). My guess is early to mid 60s sometime. They sound amazing. If I ever sell the guitar, I'm keeping the pickups. But, it's like having a miniature 175, so it's great for my small hands.

Re: PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:01 am
by James-T
My first guitar was like that. An SG Junior. 1967 (still have it). It had a single T-bucket in it. Probably 69 vintage. I always thought it was stock with the T-bucker and with the guitars natural finish.

I met Randy Bachman's guitar tech a few years ago and he was interested in that SG so I had him do some work on it. Turns out the guitar used to be white with a dog ear. Go figure. I suppose the dog ear pup was gone when I purchased it in 1979. But in the late 60's early 70's not very many people could afford a new SG and everyone wanted to sound like Clapton in Cream so it was normal to take a used instrument and mod it. That T-bucker probably came out of Gibson with a headstock break. That's my guess, because back then there was no eBay, internet, or pick-up vendors - just pawn shops and adds in the local weekly's. You got what came with the guitar.

But that is such a sweet hum bucker. I moved it to that LP DC in the video. It was pretty high output so it balanced better with the neck PAF.

There is something to be said for vintage humbuckers (and guitars!).

Peace, :smile:

James

Re: PAF versus Dimarzio for a Live Dead tone

PostPosted:Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:31 am
by aiq
nice.