Grateful Dead Music Forum

TemporarySaint wrote:

strumminsix wrote:

TemporarySaint wrote: Why bring up Bush? Do you really think Obama & Clinton and Bush Sr were different? HA!

.

"LOL! Federally it's still illegal. Why don't you sit back and write your representatives to have off the federal illicit drug list so the states can decide!

No, I think they're all the same. I didn't bring up Bush though, I only resonded to the silly question concerning Cheney and the fact that he tried to claim he was part of the legislative branch.

I HAVE written to both my Assemblymen and my State Senator. Now I would like to see others do the same. I don't know what's so damn funny about this. This could be a watershed moment for Marijuana Reform if people would only take it seriously and get involved.

As far as it being illegal on the Federal level the President has already publicly stated that he will tell Federal Agents to cease raiding Medical Marijuana facilities. The states are going to lead the way on this and with Cali introducing legislation that, if passed, would LEGALIZE MARIJUANA, THE TIME IS NOW.

If you don't want to be involved strummin' that's fine. But don't act like this is impossible...IT'S HAPPENING.

Obama promised not to enforce federal mj laws. Agreed. But when I hear that I think:
1 - he's a politician and they all lie
2 - it is not really proper for an elected official to decide what laws to enforce or not enforce
3 - what happens when he leaves office and his successor decides to enforce those laws? it's like judicial law it's short term and no guarantee tomorrow

Now what is so laughable...
You join this site to talk about mj
For all I know it's the only thing you are passionate about
You feel if all the states legalize medical mj & decriminalize recreational that it becomes legal! It doesn't!
You haven't ready anything else I've shared in this thread to understand my position but you argue with me regardless

BTW, a post up you said "force this CHANGE" - change isn't forced in a representative republic. Only dictators can force change.

TemporarySaint wrote:

strumminsix wrote:

TemporarySaint wrote: Why bring up Bush? Do you really think Obama & Clinton and Bush Sr were different? HA!

.

"LOL! Federally it's still illegal. Why don't you sit back and write your representatives to have off the federal illicit drug list so the states can decide!

No, I think they're all the same. I didn't bring up Bush though, I only resonded to the silly question concerning Cheney and the fact that he tried to claim he was part of the legislative branch.

Not to be argumentative, but the only duty of the VP in the Constitution is president of the senate. That is clearly part of the legislative branch. Obviously, as VP of the country there is also a strong executive branch connection. I believe Cheney claimed that his office was not entirely a part of the executive branch, which is of course far different from saying that his office is entirely in the legislative branch. Given the constitutional duty spelled out, this claim does not seem to be entirely without merit, regardless of what his motivations were.

wise guy

I joined because I saw an opportunity to converse with like-minded people about something that I never thought would happen, but it is happening. I'm passionate about many things, music and the GD being two of them. But neither music nor the GD are illegal so I see no reason to discuss them, while using a thread about Medical Marijuana that someone else started. I offer that it is you strummin' who started this "argument," not I.

I never said that if States legalize Medical MJ that it becomes LEGAL Fedarally. What I did say is that the States will lead the way on this. And if Cali passes Legalization and the tax revenue starts pouring in, other States will follow. That combined with a changing Presidential attitude will only help with Marijuana Reform. This won't happen over night but it is happening.

Maybe "Force" was the wrong word to use when talking about this CHANGE. But I still believe that if enough voters let their voices be heard that the politicians will have no choice but to listen. So it is UP TO THOSE WHO CARE TO "INITIATE" THIS CHANGE. No Dictators here, just voters who actually get involved. That's how you force, uh, I mean, INITIATE change.

I understand if you're not on board with this strummin'. I wouldn't expect a Dick Cheney fan to be anyway. LOL.

TemporarySaint wrote:I joined because I saw an opportunity to converse with like-minded people about something that I never thought would happen, but it is happening. I'm passionate about many things, music and the GD being two of them. But neither music nor the GD are illegal so I see no reason to discuss them, while using a thread about Medical Marijuana that someone else started. I offer that it is you strummin' who started this "argument," not I.

We are like minded about music. Not drugs and policies and politics. With regards to those we all have very different opinions. Why not just joing a norml board if you are truly looking for like minded individuals? Seems like that's all you are here to do is passionately debate mj laws. You have the right to believe I started an "argument" but I am not the one coming into a thread as a new member blasting away with CAPS and not truly reading the words of contributors...

TemporarySaint wrote:I never said that if States legalize Medical MJ that it becomes LEGAL Fedarally. What I did say is that the States will lead the way on this. And if Cali passes Legalization and the tax revenue starts pouring in, other States will follow. That combined with a changing Presidential attitude will only help with Marijuana Reform. This won't happen over night but it is happening.

Then you obviously don't understand the federal machine! So P.BO doesn't enforce this law, a dozen states legalize medical and half dozen decriminalize recreational... What about the next president who actually honors his oath and enforces, as executive, the laws of the land. It is not a win. It's wasted effort and tax dollars until it is changed at a federal level.

TemporarySaint wrote:Maybe "Force" was the wrong word to use when talking about this CHANGE. But I still believe that if enough voters let their voices be heard that the politicians will have no choice but to listen. So it is UP TO THOSE WHO CARE TO "INITIATE" THIS CHANGE. No Dictators here, just voters who actually get involved. That's how you force, uh, I mean, INITIATE change.

Getting involved at a state level is a foolish endeavor for a short-term gain but long term loss. I'd support you 100% going to DC and pushing for the President to truly stand behind his words by not enforcing mj be mandating a new policy and relinquishing mj drug laws to the states!

TemporarySaint wrote:I understand if you're not on board with this strummin'. I wouldn't expect a Dick Cheney fan to be anyway. LOL.

You understand nothing. You are too blindly exhausted by your soap-box. If you would have read anything I wrote besides cherry picking an argument you'd see I'm all in favor of legalized drugs of all forms as well as being a huge state's rights fan and a very limited federal gov't to ensure these...

Tennessee Jedi wrote:http://cbs3.com/health/new.jersey.medical.2.942469.html
Bill passed today

Awesome!

You're right strummin' I understand nothing. This isn't about me or you it's about people making their voices heard. If they do great, if not, well more and more Marijuana "offenders" will continue to clog our prison systems.

I apologize since I offended you, strummin', by using CAPS. They were only used to illustrate IMPORTANCE, not HOSTILITY. I didn't know that the use of CAPS was reserved for members with a certain length of tenure.

I thought that since someone else, krzykat, not I, started this thread that it would be a good place to spread the word. I guess I was wrong. Good luck to you all and I hope that don't have to deal with any legal problems due to enjoying Marijuana. And remember YOU ( the collective "you," not you strummin', although you could too.) can make a DIFFERENCE.

Hey stummin' you seem to think that I believe that a few states legalizing Medical will solve this problem. That's not the case. What I am saying is that the dominos are starting to fall. The stars are starting to align and if people want this then NOW is the time to act on it.

strummin wrote "Then you obviously don't understand the federal machine! So P.BO doesn't enforce this law, a dozen states legalize medical and half dozen decriminalize recreational... What about the next president who actually honors his oath and enforces, as executive, the laws of the land. It is not a win. It's wasted effort and tax dollars until it is changed at a federal level."

That's not what I am saying at all. If enough States do it ( and do it successfully and maybe even balance their budgets with the tax revenue ie: California) Congress will be forced to do something about it. I believe some sort of positive reform would be the outcome. If a Bill is then written and passed by both Houses this President, who may have 8 more years, would surely sign it into Law. Not sure what "tax dollars" would be wasted through not arresting and incarcerating thousands of Marijuana users. And the tax revenue for a State like California is unreal. This would be a win. Any positive movement on this issue would be a win.

So that's it from me on this. I will leave this board to those like strummin', with longer tenure and all the rights and privelages that go with it.

TemporarySaint wrote:Hey stummin' you seem to think that I believe that a few states legalizing Medical will solve this problem. That's not the case. What I am saying is that the dominos are starting to fall. The stars are starting to align and if people want this then NOW is the time to act on it.

strummin wrote "Then you obviously don't understand the federal machine! So P.BO doesn't enforce this law, a dozen states legalize medical and half dozen decriminalize recreational... What about the next president who actually honors his oath and enforces, as executive, the laws of the land. It is not a win. It's wasted effort and tax dollars until it is changed at a federal level."

That's not what I am saying at all. If enough States do it ( and do it successfully and maybe even balance their budgets with the tax revenue ie: California) Congress will be forced to do something about it. I believe some sort of positive reform would be the outcome. If a Bill is then written and passed by both Houses this President, who may have 8 more years, would surely sign it into Law. Not sure what "tax dollars" would be wasted through not arresting and incarcerating thousands of Marijuana users. And the tax revenue for a State like California is unreal. This would be a win. Any positive movement on this issue would be a win.

So that's it from me on this. I will leave this board to those like strummin', with longer tenure and all the rights and privelages that go with it.

The wasted tax dollars I referenced were the state legislature working a piece that goes against the feds.

Taking your domino analogy, the effects is like an intricate domino arrangement and if you don't press the first one (removing mj from the fed narc list) anything after is like pushing the center of the arrangement and only half fall leaving nothing all that impressive.

There are no rights or privileges that I have. I'm not debating you like a senior member nor an admin. I'm talking 1 on 1 with you. You leaving is your choice. You staying will show you want to be part of community filled with deadhead musicians.

I would love to see a concerted, coordinated, and sustained effort at the federal level to discard most of the "war" on drugs. I think that Obama's words have generated unwarranted optimism, but don't let that stop anyone. We should always be working our representatives to do what we want.

In spite of the letters I have written to Kerry & Kennedy (my reps) over the years, neither one has had the common courtesy for even a form letter response, nevermind a change in their opinion, so some reps aren't really interested in the opinions of their constituency. Still, you have to keep hammering them.

Emoto wrote:I would love to see a concerted, coordinated, and sustained effort at the federal level to discard most of the "war" on drugs. I think that Obama's words have generated unwarranted optimism, but don't let that stop anyone. We should always be working our representatives to do what we want.

In spite of the letters I have written to Kerry & Kennedy (my reps) over the years, neither one has had the common courtesy for even a form letter response, nevermind a change in their opinion, so some reps aren't really interested in the opinions of their constituency. Still, you have to keep hammering them.

+1

I thought this was a pretty interesting article. Rasmussen Report is a fairly straight-ahead unbiased and accurate polling site, IMO: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... _legalized

O.K. I should know better at my age than to say, "that's all I have to say." So even though I was shown the door with that Vince Welnick photo the last post by Emoto brought me back. The following quote from Emoto's RasmussenReport find is one of the stars that are aligning.

Three Nobel Prize winners including Milton Friedman were among the more than 500 economists who endorsed a 2005 Harvard study that concluded that legalization of marijuana “would save $7.7 billion per year in state and federal expenditures on prohibition enforcement and produce tax revenues of at least $2.4 billion annually if marijuana were taxed like most consumer goods. If, however, marijuana were taxed similarly to alcohol or tobacco, it might generate as much as $6.2 billion annually.”

The dominoes that I spoke of falling are the States that will legalize Medical one by one. The stars that will align and collectively bring nation-wide reform are : A different Presidential attitude towards Marijuana, states like N.J. that are considering Medical, California and it's proposed Legalization ( this is a big one because the tax revenue would be enormous and would help to pull California out of deep economic doo-doo, hopefully this will happen.), states that already allow Medical would then follow California's lead to enjoy some tax revenue of their own, a giant block of young, registered voters who will hopefully make their voices heard, changing public attitude towards Marijuana and last but certainly not least THE ECONOMY. When Congress finally realizes the money can be made by taxing the shit out of it it's bound to happen.

To use Friedman's numbers from the quote above $7.7B saved in prohibition costs and as much as $6.2B in tax revenue. That's $14B right there and I think his $6.2B number will probably be off by a bit. So strummin' I think that our differences on this subject lie in me saying "We can do this" and you saying "No you can't." I know you said you supported Legalization, but I guess you don't believe that it's achievable? Or maybe you're just having fun by busting my balls. Let me know. And how 'bout gettin rid of the Welnick pic?

I live in Sacramento (CA state Capitol) and here is a link from the local paper with the down low on the legislation.

http://www.sacbee.com/topstories/story/1647570.html

This is what I find really interesting in the story "If the federal ban never is lifted, AB 390 would prohibit state and local officers from assisting federal agencies in enforcing marijuana laws.

It would instruct state and local officers not to make arrests for cultivating, selling, possessing, transporting or using the drug."

The avatar pics are an automated function. You will cycle through different ones as you have more posts. After some number (500?) the system allows you to pick your own. Nobody is doing anything more than arguing with you.

I think one of the biggest obstacles is the politicians' fear that they will be labeled as "soft on drugs" and will lose their re-election bids. Political dynamite. You can be sure that whoever comes out favoring legalization will be attacked for it as a political tool to gain advantage. Politicians don't think like we do.