Grateful Dead Music Forum

I have to weigh in against the kind of overly-developed verbal communication used by both P&F and Ratdog, and against the kind of autocratic leadership style that they've both developed.

Part of what made the Dead so much fun to listen to is that Jerry was the leader, but he led mostly by example while the rest of the band was given a lot of creative freedom.

Also, the style of communication the Dead used was way more musical. The section changes, even the complicated ones, should happen when the music collectively dictates that they should happen, not when one guy decides it's time and tells everybody else. Having one leader on stage making all the musical decisions automatically stifles the creativity of each and every other person on stage since they are forced to defer their judgement at all times rather than playing what feels natural and musical. It also divides the leader's attention 3 ways - playing their instrument, making the decisions, and communicating to the band - so everyone is deferring to a leader whose musicianship is compromised.

Put another way, a good jam band should have no trouble staying together even if everybody's blindfolded. At most, the communication should be eye contact with the drummer towards the end of a solo or jam, and he plays a fill to cue the next section.

This business of hand-signals and talkback into the IEMs just turns what could be an exciting band into a weak version of one of Zappa's bands, but without the amazing tightness, complexity and virtuosity that made his music interesting and viable. Even Zappa never made musical decisions or cued changes in his band while he was playing guitar... for him the band was his main instrument and his guitar was secondary.

Sorry for the rant... I just really don't agree with how either Phil or Bobby run their bands. You'd think they'd have learned more from Jerry on that regard... either one could easily step into his role of reluctant, de-facto leader and the music would be 10x better.

Some good points Rusty. But, I think comparing FZ's way of doing things and the GD's are like apples and oranges because FZ's bands were HEAVILY practiced and there were certain specific ways he directed things. Sometimes, he'd say something like "Because they can really go hawaiian" which would be the cue to change styles in a vamp or whatever. Also, I believe the caliber of musician in his band was "better" than most any band past or present. He had MONSTERS in those bands who could play anything. Not that the GD aren't great musicians but there just not virtuosos like FZ had.

I don't think the GD practiced as much and mostly practiced when they were breaking out new stuff or integrating a new member. Of course they did play a lot of shows together over the years. Again, not something Bob and Phil always had the luxury of in their own bands---though, Ratdog's been solid now for quite a while---and, it shows. They're playing great these days but Bob is clearly the leader and visibly takes the role on. FWIW, there were plenty of hand signals and such with the GD. There were also great transitions that seemed to come from the whole as well. Just easier said than done I think.

I'm guessing this upcoming tour will have some signals, but hopefully they're gonna practice a lot more than usual and the shows will be really great again.

Sorry Strumminsix, I think I misunderstood what you were getting at. My wife says I've been on the rag lately. I think she's right.

strumminsix wrote:Are you seriously disagreeing with me about what many jambands do that my ears hear when you admittedly haven't listened to them?

I was simply awash in the irony of anyone from the GD telling someone else to noodle less.

bodiddley wrote:Sorry Strumminsix, I think I misunderstood what you were getting at. My wife says I've been on the rag lately. I think she's right.

ha! no worries, dude! i bleed next week!

strumminsix wrote:

bodiddley wrote: ha! no worries, dude! i bleed next week!

Rusty the Scoob wrote:I have to weigh in against the kind of overly-developed verbal communication used by both P&F and Ratdog, and against the kind of autocratic leadership style that they've both developed.

Part of what made the Dead so much fun to listen to is that Jerry was the leader, but he led mostly by example while the rest of the band was given a lot of creative freedom.

I'm a sucky leader. I find I respond better with a clear defined leader. It stops the wanking and can help keep things musical.
Like "end it "
or passing a solo ....
I'm just a weekend warrior though.

Rusty the Scoob wrote:
Put another way, a good jam band should have no trouble staying together even if everybody's blindfolded. At most, the communication should be eye contact with the drummer towards the end of a solo or jam, and he plays a fill to cue the next section.

I guess my weakness is the eye contact ....
I really think if guys know the song they really should be able to do it blind folded .... like Uncle; a song that is "set" already ...Intro Singing solo end ... bam ... funny how it doesnt go down that way sometimes ...
But for Cassidy jam I need the " Ok right here NOW look " ....
I would like to get to where Rusty is talking about.
Sometimes I am concentrating so hard on not fucking up I dont listen to the other guys ...But I work at it...
Being in a band and jamming is the shit.

noodling is totally subjective. lot of dead jams were group noodles - that is everyone was going out on a limb and not planning every note they would play.

at some point as an improvisational artist you let your intuition and your instincts take over. you wouldn't think about every note or it would sound pretty boring cuz you couldn't play freely. if you have command of your instrument and are at all musical, your fingers kinda know where to go - of course it helps to know where you are on the fretboard so that you can reorient yourself after some extended foray into inspiration land.

then again, inspiration land can also be wank-off land so we come back to the original point - noodling is most definitely a subjective experience.

where is the difference between noodling and exploring musically?

doesn't it depend on the context which is largely dependent on the chemistry of the musicians?

.

I think we're missing the point.
Bobby is not being "ironic" or "hypocritical".
They WERE "The Grateful Dead".
They WROTE THE SONG LYRICS.
They COMPOSED THE MUSIC.
They argueably WERE THE FIRST BAND IN THE HISTORY OF ROCK AND ROLL TO INCORPORATE "MODAL" IMPROVOSATION.
I think what he's saying is...
If you're not picking up where we left off, you're so 15 minutes ago it aint even funny.
ALL THE NOODLING HAS BEEN DONE FOR YOU!!!
You can read a coupla web sites in one afternoon and learn everyting it took us 30 years to flush out!
Come up with an original thought or shut the fuck up!

Ya think Bobby listens to ANY original jam band out there today and doesn't roll his eyes and think "We were fuckin' doin' that in 1969!!!"
Sheesh.

Scales, Modes, Intervals, Triads, Open and Closed Chord Forms, Chord Inversions, Chord Progressions, MELODY, Dissonence, SPACE!, TONE!.. ETC, ETC, ETC...
If you've been there and done that the hard way, I mean, C'mon... put yourself in his shoes.
What else could he possibly say?

Uhhh, I don't really know, but that's my way of thinking on this matter.

To kind of merge this with the "Family Dog" topic, here's Rock Scully on "noodling":

These aren't songs in any conventional sense, they are catch-penny epics of noodling, circling riffs. Holding patterns of songs. Garcia carries on these long, looping, musical, telepathic conversations with his guitar, adjusting the flow from beat to beat, drifting from mood to mood. The idea seems to be to play everything but the tunes. Noodling it may be, but it is not your garden-variety noodling born of ineptitude. This is the inspired, consecrated noodling of the gods. I am mesmerized. This band will never get anywhere but man, are they good.

word.