Grateful Dead Music Forum

I have a question - and I promise I mean it legitimately. I'll ask it after this brief poem:

Sonnet — To Science (Edgar Allan Poe)

Science! true daughter of Old Time thou art!
Who alterest all things with thy peering eyes.
Why preyest thou thus upon the poet’s heart,
Vulture, whose wings are dull realities?
How should he love thee? or how deem thee wise,
Who wouldst not leave him in his wandering
To seek for treasure in the jewelled skies,
Albeit he soared with an undaunted wing?
Hast thou not dragged Diana from her car,
And driven the Hamadryad from the wood
To seek a shelter in some happier star?
Hast thou not torn the Naiad from her flood,
The Elfin from the green grass, and from me
The summer dream beneath the tamarind tree?

Here's my question.

If Garcia, back in the day, had access to, consulted, or used oscilloscopes and equalizers to craft his tone, I'm not aware of it (if you are, please correct me, many know more about Jerry's techniques than I). Instead, it's my understanding he sculpted his tone by using his ears and hands to choose the right gear and manipulate it through their settings and his superb picking technique.

Why not also approach your question this way? Perhaps you can dial in/pick the tones you're seeking the same old school way Jerry did via gear you already own (with or without an equalizer like a Boss GE-7)!

Jon S. wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:37 pm I have a question - and I promise I mean it legitimately. I'll ask it after this brief poem:

Sonnet — To Science (Edgar Allan Poe)

Science! true daughter of Old Time thou art!
Who alterest all things with thy peering eyes.
Why preyest thou thus upon the poet’s heart,
Vulture, whose wings are dull realities?
How should he love thee? or how deem thee wise,
Who wouldst not leave him in his wandering
To seek for treasure in the jewelled skies,
Albeit he soared with an undaunted wing?
Hast thou not dragged Diana from her car,
And driven the Hamadryad from the wood
To seek a shelter in some happier star?
Hast thou not torn the Naiad from her flood,
The Elfin from the green grass, and from me
The summer dream beneath the tamarind tree?

Here's my question.

If Garcia, back in the day, had access to, consulted, or used oscilloscopes and equalizers to craft his tone, I'm not aware of it (if you are, please correct me, many know more about Jerry's techniques than I). Instead, it's my understanding he sculpted his tone by using his ears and hands to choose the right gear and manipulate it through their settings and his superb picking technique.

Why not also approach your question this way? Perhaps you can dial in/pick the tones you're seeking the same old school way Jerry did via gear you already own (with or without an equalizer like a Boss GE-7)!

I disagree with the poem, science is just a tool to understand things, I don't expect science to create poetic magic, I expect that through the language of "science" (if we can call a frequency analyzer and an EQ that way) I can learn to understand the details and then do things on my own. Jerry's tone is a temporary fixation (I have many and not just jerry-related ones), what I ll learn I ll carry with me even if I get tired of the "Veneta tone". These personal quests that are a bit weird, a bit ocd, a bit autistic are personal experiments that increase my general knowledge of the tools I use to create (bad) music.

This week I stacked 30 hours of guitar practice (not bad considering I have to work and study for university too) and maybe only a couple ended up doing things to "get into Jerry's territory". My goal in my musical life is not to become Jerry, it just happened by chance that the Veneta tone fits well with my personal tastes and so I wanted to reverse engineer it and understand what makes that tone like that. Maybe it's difficult to understand for someone who doesn't learn as I (or others) do; I have always been a bit schematic\brainy about things, so for me, this "scientific" deep dive is important because it's the best way for my brain to learn things. I don't know, I would call it a synaesthetic approach since we're not just talking about "ears".

Oh just to be precise, all this weirdo deep dive was born precisely because, with the tools I had, I couldn't get that tone with just my ears. I don't know maybe I'm too curious sometimes.

Ah sorry if this post sounds pissed Jon, I'm not, but English is not my first language. In fact I do love about these things and how different people take very different paths in their learning journey!

Forgot to say an important thing. I'm learning a lot about guitar frequencies and probably without this fixation who knows when and how a similar opportunity would have presented itself

Wow, what a great, thoughtful reply. I appreciate that you took the time and effort to craft it, thank you. Would add only that, one, I didn’t interpret it as pissed at all and, two, if you can write like this in your second language, you must be eloquent indeed in your first. P.S. I admit it, I love Poe (even if I root for the Commanders rather than the Ravens!).

Jon S. wrote:
If Garcia, back in the day, had access to, consulted, or used oscilloscopes and equalizers to craft his tone, I'm not aware of it (if you are, please correct me, many know more about Jerry's techniques than I). Instead, it's my understanding he sculpted his tone by using his ears and hands to choose the right gear and manipulate it through their settings and his superb picking technique.

This brings to mind an exchange I had several years ago with a rep from DiMarzio. I had called for advice on choosing DiMarzio pickups for a DBZ Imperial that I wanted to modify. We discussed Garcia’s tone and his choice of DiMarzio pickups. The rep opined that Jerry got his tone in spite of the pickups he used, not because of the pickups!

Bill, tgo

lbpesq wrote:Jon S. wrote:
If Garcia, back in the day, had access to, consulted, or used oscilloscopes and equalizers to craft his tone, I'm not aware of it (if you are, please correct me, many know more about Jerry's techniques than I). Instead, it's my understanding he sculpted his tone by using his ears and hands to choose the right gear and manipulate it through their settings and his superb picking technique.

This brings to mind an exchange I had several years ago with a rep from DiMarzio. I had called for advice on choosing DiMarzio pickups for a DBZ Imperial that I wanted to modify. We discussed Garcia’s tone and his choice of DiMarzio pickups. The rep opined that Jerry got his tone in spite of the pickups he used, not because of the pickups!

Bill, tgo

It’s never this or that. It’s the whole. Always. Whatever tone you are hearing, or chasing, or pining for, was always due to the player and the gear combined!

This argument of tone coming from either the player or the gear has been dragged through the mud on here, and has turned away many of our best tech/gear minded members. It’s always a systems approach folks. You may not want to admit that for whatever reason, be it lack of funds, poor hearing, lack of technical understanding of the gear itself and its affects, or foolish pride, but it is what it is.

Everything affects everything.

Jon S. wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2025 12:49 pm Everything affects everything.

Ommmmmmm.........

TI4-1009 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:48 am

Jon S. wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2025 12:49 pm Everything affects everything.

Ommmmmmm.........

Believe it or not, my source for "Everything affects everything" is the former Orioles' manager, Earl Weaver.

After substituting, in the 8th inning of a close game, for one of his starters a better hitting outfielder who proceeded to strike out and then make a critical fielding error in the 9th, a reporter asked Weaver, "Do you think your substitution cost you the game?" With a glare that, if you saw it, would have melted iron, Earl replied, "Everything affects everything."

So, I guess that makes Earl Weaver a bit Zen, in addition to all else he was.

Earl Weaver was the best ever at kicking dirt on an umpire. He raised it to a true art form!

Bill, tgo

lbpesq wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 8:27 am Earl Weaver was the best ever at kicking dirt on an umpire. He raised it to a true art form!

Bill, tgo

#4!!!! My grandparents lived directly across from Memorial Stadium, I spent a bunch of my early years going to games. The late 70s and early 80s Orioles were everything to me back then.

Hope they can get back on track this season.

The sharp drop of frequencies above 5khz is not playing technique. Most of the gear, including the JBL’s would pass tones above that, so there had to be EQ applied somewhere. Most likely after the microphone to look like that.

Jon S. wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2025 1:08 pm You might be overcomplicating it for yourself.

My 2 cents - try one of these with your existing pedals:

(1) EQ pedal - try up front and at the end of your board and in your effects loop - choose what works best for your application (I swear by the Boss GE7 but you have many more options)
https://www.boss.info/US/products/ge-7/

(2) Dumble-style overdrive (you can wet your toes with this one, which I own and is amazing value, for under $31 and if you don't like it, Amazon gives you up to 30 days to return it)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MTF1LYD?re ... title&th=1

(3) Bonus additional option: most of us already have one of more of each of these, if you do, too, it'll be free to try: start your effects chain with a compressor with minimal compression followed by a clean boost slightly above unity gain. Especially into a tube amp, just this could get you closer to what you're seeking.

Let us know what you eventually try and your findings.

Hello guys, sorry for the super late update but life got in the way as they say.

So I'll quote you mr Jon because I found a german dude that modifies GE-7 pedals for cheap (really really cheap!). The modified version is basically a XTS Midrange Graphic Modded GE-7 clone, but without the hype and for Europeans; it's fully focus on guitar midrange was exactly what i was looking for.

I bought it, I moved the slider to roughly match my intuitions based on the EQ I isolated from Veneta recording and the natural EQ of my amp and MAMMA MIA!

I swear it to you guys the tone is there, the difference in the room is just incredible. I recorded a clip with the pedal turned off \on with my phone, so probably you won't appreciate how effing close the tone is. I'm in the middle of moving from one city to another and I don't have all the equipment to record properly, so you have to believe me when I tell you that for me this tone journey ends here, and successfully so!
I swear to god those cosmic peacocks are so easy to summon with this pedal I'm floored.

https://on.soundcloud.com/lqBT84DMB48qYOjN1u

https://i.imgur.com/Hh9feku.jpeg