[old man down]

The more I learn about guitar and the more I study Garcia and his playing style, the more I come to the following conclusion:

Jerry's favorite position was:

|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|

Admittedly, he used all and all sorts of positions, but I just get the feeling, a LOT of times, that this one was often a home position for him to work from.

He was very comfortable here and could make things very spacey too if he wanted to.

[gratephulphish123]

me too, for the first 3 years of my guitar playing that was the only position i knew

[Pete B.]

It's definetly used alot for all the minor key (Dorian mode) stuff where the root is the same as the Key you're in.

For Ionian, you could use that pattern with the Barre at the 2nd fret, start your do-re-me... with an open low-E... or for a different feel, start you descending triplettes at the highest note of that pattern on the high-e string at the 17th fret.

For Mixolydian that pattern lies directly on top of the A-shape 7th chord (like E7 with the barre at the 7th fret).

Jer moves through through the basic positions so fluently I've never noticed a favoring of one over the other four.
I'll have to watch for this tendancy.

[hesgone95]

I've always heard Jerry's favorite position was missionary...C'mon, you knew somebody was gonna say it....

But seriously, what position are you referring to? I don't see any frets indicated.

[Pete B.]

fwiw, if you Barre that pattern at the 2nd and/or 14th fret, you can play:

1) The solo improv at the end of Estmated (F#m Dorian) [Note: add the b5 as a passing tone].

2) The Eyes intro/outro Emaj7th jam (Ionian).

3) The Music Never Stopped space jam in B7 (Mixolydian).

There must be a million of 'em!

[old man down]

To those with questions about frets, I have to assume that you at least see something there, and that what we all see is the same.

You don't need frets to be mentioned. It is just a pattern from the major scale that you come upon as you drift around on the fingerboard as you explore what different parts of the fingerboard sound like.

If you were to listen to a Garcia lead, and then go to your guitar and try to duplicate it, you'll find that you have a selection of places on the fingerboard to play the notes. After you do this a lot you begin to think like him and you search for the same qualities--ease of play, good launching point to other areas, intrinsic noodling capability, sweet melody generator--that help you decide where you want to spend your time learning the lead.

This pattern really enables you to cook. It just has everything in this regard. You can play your leads with other positions just as well, but they'll have a different dynamic, for example, soaring. (and not cooking)

[jonarobb]

Garcia definately didn't play in any one mode, or position or pattern. He had a working knowledge of a song or a jams signature key and just flowed from there. The whole Ionian, dorian, mixolydian thing is great when you're learning but these are all just modes born out of the major scale. Garcia strictly worked on the fly by knowing what major scale to superimpose over a certain set of chord changes based on the key center. He completely mastered this approach by 73 or so and he jumped heavy into accenting the extended chord tones and would build amazing edgy arpeggios which strictly accented these "outside" tones.

Now, there definately was a certain part of the neck he favored but that was more related to tonal variations rather than what pattern was available.

[old man down]

Garcia definately didn't play in any one mode, or position or pattern. He had a working knowledge of a song or a jams signature key and just flowed from there.

Let's not get into any modal discussion here. I agree that he had a working knowledge of a song and would play stuff on the fly all over the neck.

If you know the major scale, and you are VERY familiar with a given song that requires the major scale (or even the pentatonic derivatives within the major scale), what you find is that you work your way around the neck as you come across the five "chunky" positions. Some positions are less amenable to getting the "Jerry" sound. This may be because they do not lend themselves easily to the large jumps that his melodies involved. Or it may be that he didn't dwell on those positions very long, prefering other positions to work from, and so therefore some positions would not be considered "favorites" of his.

Let me illustrate my point with an observation.

On you tube there is the China Cat/Rider clip. It is broken down into two parts. Let us just focus on the first part. This is the clip that has the two little girls, like four years old, dancing around at the start.

In the middle of China Cat, there is the part of the lead where the song suddenly drops down to the C chord, then the D chord, and then it modulates up to the E chord, and Weir plays his China Cat riff and Garcia continues with his lead line exploration.

He uses this position:

|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|

You can see it on the video.

When I play this same riff of his at this point in the song, I find myself three frets higher working the lead using this position:

|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|

I can play the exact same notes as him but I'm not in the same position as him. He could play the exact same notes using the position that I use, if that suited him. Personally, I find my position easier for whatever reasons. Nonetheless, Jerry preferred the position he used. He liked it more, he favored it more. It was a personal choice for him based on his experience. Prefering one position over another is what separates different players from one another. It is what makes them sound the way they do.

Garcia had a distinctive "sound" based on what worked for him. My interest is to distill the positions he most liked and then figure out why he liked those positions over others and how they lend themselves to getting his "sound."

[Billbbill]

Garcia had a distinctive "sound" based on what worked for him. My interest is to distill the positions he most liked and then figure out why he liked those positions over others and how they lend themselves to getting his "sound."

Yikes! This is a dicey proposition. Especially the bold part!

Whatever floats you boat bro, but to me it's a bit the Don Quixote routine. Ya know - jousting windmills.

On a more constructive front keep in mind that the lick you reference is a signature one from China Cat, and as such if he indeed "favored" that positioning for that lick, (for the heck of it I watched a few vids of this and indeed all were at the same position) aside from whether or not this was due to any sound difference/preference from one position or another, it very well may have been to simply keep it simple to minimize the potential for clamdom. Besides, as you pointed out you're more comfortable 3 frets up (btw I think you mean 2 frets up). Assuming your technical ability is of a level where you can play where jerry played it, why wouldn't you stick with what makes most sense to you? We're all not wired the same. Also you seem to be assuming there were necessarily 'weighty' reasons for why he played one position and not another. Hard if not impossible to discern.

When he's working off the cuff, so to speak, all bets are off as his approach was more about his "melodic sensibilities" (as jonarobb so nicely outlined) and positioning/patterns likely took a back seat because all positions have the effect of offering different options and presenting in a variety of ways. From an improv perspective why would you limit yourself?

I'm reminded of a part of his lead in Eyes from the GD movie where he's plucking notes w/o (what appears to be) any real sense of positioning, but more as if picking the ripest cherry's from the tree. I'll see if I can find it.

Anyway, my intent isn't to chop you down dude - just to me if the end game is to 'sound' like jerry or get that jerry 'sound', the most important thing as far as I see it is to thoroughly internalize YOUR melodic sensibilities up and down the neck and the rest will come.

[willmusic]

Very wise, Billbbill....very wise indeed.

[old man down]

Billbbill,

I had already learned the lick on China Cat before I saw the video. When I saw where he was when he did it I thought I'd try it there. For some reason, maybe that it is difficult to unlearn something, I haven't been able to do it where he does it without screwing it up a little. So, I do it at the position above, that I showed, drop down to that position (the one he stays in) just for the dip between the repeat of the phrase, and then go back up to where I was.

However, I really like the position that he does it at for all sorts of other stuff and so I've found it to be familiar ground to me for other reasons. It really is a cool position to work out of. You have the two high strings together with the same fingering, and then just two strings in and you have another two strings with their common fingerings. Then add the fact that altogether you are working a five fret range when at this position, and the reach is huge for playing long extended melodies.

Garcia would often head to places where he would be in a pocket, so to speak. This position is a really nice pocket to work out of.

I guess what I'm getting at is if there were a tally, or better, an integration, of the time vs. position of where he would hang out while working the fingerboard, for all of the songs that he played, and remember that with different keys the postions shift around to occupy different real estate on the fingerboard, would you find that 30% of the time he would work mostly from one postion while only 10% from some other different position.

If this could be known, and technically it can be but it is a lot of work reviewing video clips--the only solid evidence, incomplete evidence at best--then it could be stated after examining the resulting percentages what positions he really favored, and maybe what was his favorite of all.

So why bother? Well, some of his melodies he stumbled upon. That is, the melodies presented themselves by happenstance, and he would nurture them and work them up. If you want to get things to sound like him, which is so very difficult from what I have found, then it might help to at least spend your time trying to launch your own melodies from the same positions. That is, learn from the master.

[caspersvapors]

When I play this same riff of his at this point in the song, I find myself three frets higher working the lead using this position:

|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|

I can play the exact same notes as him but I'm not in the same position as him. He could play the exact same notes using the position that I use, if that suited him. Personally, I find my position easier for whatever reasons. Nonetheless, Jerry preferred the position he used. He liked it more, he favored it more. It was a personal choice for him based on his experience. Prefering one position over another is what separates different players from one another. It is what makes them sound the way they do.

i also prefer that position, it just feels more natural to me

[Billbbill]

OK OMD,
I get where you want to go and how you propose to get there, I just would go about it differently. And don't get me wrong, there is definitely value in the fat mans positioning and patterns, I just think it's a hard row to hoe.

Peace brother.

[Pete B.]

I've often wondered why both Bobby and Jer play some of their signiture licks where they do, as it seems as they are making it harder on themselves to play... probably because it's easier for me to play the same thing in a different postion, and to me, it also sounds better in my chosen position (in my mind this is due to the placement of wound and unwound strings within the scal/pattern).
I do that China Cat melody in E in the same position a Jer, mainly becasue I punch the C>D>E using the A-shape of the chord, which puts your index/pointer/pinky fingers right on top of the melody notes.
The Help On The Way lick is one that seems like more work to do it where Jer does it, and feels more natural to me down by the first fret Fm chord, which also puts it on thinner strings (sounds better to me).
Then again, in the Vault vid Jer kicks off HOTW with a simple 1st fret Fm chord, so go figure... Sometimes he plays things in deferent positions.

Funn Stuff!
~pb

[bucketorain]

ok, for ripple, being the 3 major chords are G, C and D, what position would you use the major scale from above at?