[tigerstrat]

What you are describing at Hampton is the Phish scene AFTER the chaotic element that had been shadowing the DEAD all that year had jumped the sinking GD ship like rats and attached themselves to Phish's "hull".

Did you see the DEAD scene in '95 at all??? It was disgusting and exactly as you describe Hampton. Did you see the Phish scene BEFORE 1995 broadsided us? I say "us" because I was very much a part of the Phish scene in the early 90's (about 45 shows) and in almost every instance it was WAYYYY kinder imho than most scenes outside Dead shows that I had attended (about a 150)

chicken or egg which came first...

Not to completely change direction here, but I always felt that the Phish scene was never as socially conscious as the Dead. And one of the major factors (IMHO) was the music itself. Here you have the Dead playing Wharf Rat, Loser, etc., you know, songs about the human condition. Songs that create empathy for your fellow man. But it seems that Phish was all about just having fun without ever mentioning any of the bringdowns of the society they helped mold. It was a microcosm of the youth of the era.
Not that the Dead weren't about having fun, too, but I think the fans were a little older (and I hope wiser) and were a little bit more aware of the ramifications of irresponsible behavior.
The parking lot scene at the last Phish show I ever saw (Hampton circa '95 or so) was absolute chaos. People passed out, people throwing bottles, etc. So I never went back. Of course, I saw similar things at Dead shows, but not to the same extent.
I just think the Dead and/or it's fans were more about the collective scene (strangers stopping strangers, just to shake their hand) than about I/Me/Mine and how f*cked up can I get.

[Crazy 9.5 Fingers]

Wow, lot of great discussion here, it took me a day or so to read all of the posts. For me, I agree with Tiger here and it really had more to do with the time than the band. I have seen a fair share of both Phish and Dead shows and the only non musical difference for me was the age groups. Less "old timers" at Phish shows and the added youth of the Phish shows may have created a tad more chaos here and there but there was enough chaos at same era Dead shows to erase that theory I think. Musically, Phish didn't have those great slow Jerry type tunes in the beginning. Trey got better at writing them as time went on, Tom Marshall was pretty solid with his lyrics and I thought offered some very inspirational lyrics as well with certain tunes. I do think the Dead overall were all about the music and lyrics, Phish was more about the music, the complex Fugue like arrangements but as time went on, they simplified the tunes, and by the end were writing some really nice tunes. In the end both bands provided a great outlet for us to release and disappear from our regular lives for a night, a week, or an entire tour. It is really up to the user to decide how he spends his time. Whether you roll, drop a tab, puff all night, drink a bottle, etc, or go sober, it is all good just don't piss people off and we are all good.

[shakedown_04092]

Wow, this thread got out of control pretty quickly.

[Crazy 9.5 Fingers]

To think, it was just a mug shot...

[dead ed 65]

Yes, tigerstrat, I DID see Phish pre-1995 as well as at least one '95 dead show. Perhaps we both saw different things, but I agree with crazy 9.5 fingers that the age of the collective crowd may have had something to do with it. And I do agree with you that the rats did flee the sinking ship to flock to Phish. I guess my observation is that the Phish scene (in my experience only) by '94-'95 was already worse than I ever saw at any of the dead shows I ever went to (about 30 between '84 and '95). One thing I will admit: Dead gate crashers were a huge problem (Richmond, November '85 Pittsburgh, April '89). And there were instances I saw (such as Cap Center) where the police presence/response exacerbated what would have been an otherwise mellow scene.

[mttourpro]

"Jerry was a fabulous player and played a HUGE role in the success of the GD but let's not re-write history here. Pig was the original band lead and got them off the ground and TC brought them into musical psychedlia."

Not that I want to nit-pic, but....


Speaking of "let's not re-write history", seems to me that TC joined the band/played with them in late 68-69 I believe. I'm sure he had some influence and impact in the direction of the music but certainly did not LEAD them there. He happened by and was invited in at the right time for the direction they were already taking and wanting to take even further....

I have to disagree with the implication that TC led them in this direction or "brought them into musical psychedelia". They were already there by the time he joined. If any specific thing(s) helped them in that direction, it would have been the AcidTests, The Merry Pranksters, The Beats, Owsley and the entire Haight-Asbury scene of the earlier days.

The GD's first album was very "psychedelic" in relation to what was going on at the time. Check out some tapes from 68 without TC and I'm sure you'll hear some rather mindbending stuff without TC in the band.

[Django]

Reading between the lines maybe the problem is MONEY. It's the root of something...

[large75]

belive this was already said in different ways but it is all a sign of the times i am 31 now and the kids seem different now even when i first started going to shows i especially noticed differnces in the festival crowds kids really were jumping on the big party i noticed that alot of the people were not going to the stages to even see much of the music the last allgood festival that i went to was 2 or 3 years ago and the scene was horrible at one point there were people yelling about a kid running around with a hand gun, not to mention that someone had stolen my cooler and all my food amd some wine i guess they needed it more than me. for me i have found that the music is much better to see in small clubs were things are conrolled more WHAT A SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!