#172797  by natebernstein
 
I'd like to be able to sometimes achieve something approximating the very clean, yet very "alive"/"electric" and full-bodied tone that we hear in Garcia's playing during the 70s, while also being able to sometimes effectively use FX boxes like an envelope filter and Octaver. I think I can get sort of close now with a Strat/Nashville Tele middle PU through a Fender Blackface-style amp, and just go straight from the guitar into a pedalboard and then the amp. Volume/gain is obviously a concern here, and I am not playing on huge stages that can support the volume of a cranked Twin (I have a Princeton-style build with a 12" speaker that works OK). I'm not really a big fan of Jerry's 80s and onward dirty tones. I prefer the '72-'77/8 era.

I see a lot of Jerry tone chasers recreating every aspect of his latter-era signal chain. Is this primarily because those folks want to be able to cover all the ground Garcia hit during that era, or do folks think it also does a better job of getting the early/mid 70s (primarily clean and only using EF/octaver on a few songs later in this period) sound?

I ask because I'm thinking about buying a guitar with the fancy electronics, hotter pickups, etc., but am really not sure it's worth the spend. Wondering if maybe investing in a higher-headroom amp with a good master volume or attenuator, different speaker (my Princeton clone has a Texas Heat in it and doesn't really break up until you crank it, and it's surprisingly loud for a 15-watt amp) would get me a little closer. I have a Vox/Marshall-style 15 Watt BadCat amp and their "K-Master" really works well to get the power tubes cooking without having to crank the preamp, keeping the tone super clean. I even use it for pedal steel sometimes. So I'm wondering if maybe getting something similar in a blackface flavor might help (though I guess not cranking the preamp section might defeat the purpose...). On the rare occasions when I do use the EF/octaver I think it sounds good enough, so sort of question the need for the on-board loop/buffer and how much of a difference it would make.

I'm not playing in a Dead cover band. I might at some point in the future but not really in the cards at this point. Right now this would be primarily for my own recording as well as the Americana group I play with a handful of times a year (we have a few GD tunes in our repertoire but with different arrangements). So I'm not interested in nailing Jerry's tone exactly as much as getting that really full clean tone that I think would suit the music I'm playing well.

I know folks here have spent a lot of time researching and trying various gear and methods, so thought it would be great to hear the community's thoughts.
 #172798  by strumminsix
 
Assuming you don't know, the "fancy electronics" (LOL!) had purposes that you can achieve multiple ways if you aren't a purist.

The buffer was used to combat long cable runs. You can buy buffer pedals or find a tuner with a buffer and place first on your board.

The OBEL was used to ensure effects like envelope filter, octave, phaser, etc all see the full signal. You can accomplish this buy keeping your guitar volume on 10 and using a volume pedal at the end of the chain.

Think a great set of Strat pickups (esp middle) through Fender style amp with some headroom gets in the JG ballpark.
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 #172799  by NeilG1
 
I recently swapped my strat pups for 50's style Alnico 3 pickups - very much like those found in Alligator and LOVE the result, albeit with a blaster on-board as well. Chimey, clean Jerry tone for days into a fender amp.
Missing piece of the recipe for me, and likely some others, is always volume. I think to really get that 72 sound you gotta play LOUD.
 #172801  by Chocol8
 
IMHO, a lot of those things made the tone WORSE. Especially true of the hot humbucker pickups that JG then often split. (Insert vomit emoji!!!) Quite frankly, I think some of the motivation behind this was high frequency hearing damage from years of playing in front of cranked JBL's. FWIW, you don't need hot pickups to drive most envelope filters, and you can always add a clean boost pedal, eq pedal, or on board buffer/pre-amp which will all boost a signal without the downsides of hot wound pickups.

The 1972 tones were primarily Strat into Twin. Even early Wolf was Strat pickups I believe until after the Travis Bean era. The TB was its own thing, but had single coils closer to Strat pickups than the Dimarzios.

The OBEL primarily allows you to send full signal to the effects and still have volume control after them, but a volume pedal is a viable alternative. I go up and back on this, but I currently do not have any guitars with an OBEL, and I have no plans to add one again anytime soon.

The buffer is a plus IMHO but mostly If you are using the volume control on the guitar and have longer cable runs. After trying a few, my go to for a Strat is actually the Fender Mid-boost kit. Not very Jerry, but with the mid boost all the way down it is an excellent buffer and clean boost. With the volume around 7 it is like the raw pickups with a 1.0 gain buffer, but then you have the option to turn it up and also the option to add more mids which is great for non Dead as well as getting more of the Gibson P90 or HB tones of the late 60's to early 70's era.

The pre-amp to Mac appeared in 1973. Is it better tone wise? A little different, but keep in mind Jerry was doing it to get significantly more volume than a Twin Reverb could provide. Personally, I prefer the tones I get by running my Twin into a Suhr RL IR, and then feeding that into a power amp (MosValve) to drive the cabs. This allows me to turn the Twin's volume up enough to get some power tube distortion like the late 60's tones, or down a bit to keep it clean like later tones. Either way, the volume controls on the Suhr and the power amp allow getting those tones at any volume level.
 #172802  by lbpesq
 
Regarding your comments on high output HBs, several years ago I called up DiMarzio to get some advice on choosing a set of their pickups for a DBZ Imperial I was modding. During the conversation we got around to Jerry's sound. The DiMarzio rep told me that Jerry got his sound "in spite of his Dimarzios, not because of them"! I found this quite interesting.

Bill, tgo
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 #172805  by Jon S.
 
lbpesq wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:35 pm The DiMarzio rep told me that Jerry got his sound "in spite of his Dimarzios, not because of them"! I found this quite interesting.
Interesting to me, too, but not surprising. Leslie West sounded like Leslie West at a NAMM through a small solid state amp, Zappa sounded like Zappa be his amp a pignose or a Marshall (he used both), and Jerry still sounded like Jerry with the Dead, JGB, and otherwise over the years on a diverse set of guitars and amps.
 #172806  by natebernstein
 
Hey, thanks everyone for the thoughts.

Sounds like the consensus answer for my purposes is “no.”

Interesting to hear the buffer was just to compensate for long cable runs. I have a buffered pedal or two in my effects chain, so I think I should be good there.

Experimenting a bit the past few days with my Nashville Tele and Princeton 112 build and overall pretty happy, though turning it up loud definitely makes a difference. My amp has a “fat” switch routed to a mid control on the back panel, and with the bass turned down (can’t abide zero but 2-3 sounds good), treble at around 5-6 and the fat switch on/mid pot at 2-3 I’m getting good results. A Klon-type pedal in the chain, set to low gain as a boost, also seems to help quite a bit as a “more” button of sorts (and has a buffer as mentioned earlier). Right now I have the EF at the front of the chain, after only a tuner and Cry Baby Wah (which I really don’t use much anymore but has been on my board forever) but I may try it after the Klon(e) and see how that sounds.

I may also try a volume pedal at the end of the chain, as that’s something I’ve been thinking about anyway (volume swells, kill switch, etc.). May try the one I use for pedal steel first before buying a smaller unit that would take up less board space.

@Chocl8, interesting setup there with the Twin->Suhr IR->power amp->cabs. I guess you can’t go straight from the Suhr unit or a Fryette PowerStation straight into a cab? I’m not the best when it comes to wiring/electronics but it sounds like you’re using the Twin preamp and power amp for tone, attenuating with the Suhr unit and then re-amping with a non-tube power amp that doesn’t color the tone but gets you the right volume level into your speaker(s)?

In any case, I’m relieved that the high-output pickups don’t seem to be necessary for my purposes. Thanks, all! Great community here.
 #172809  by Chocol8
 
The Suhr unit does not have a built in amp, so you need to add one. I use MosValves, but you could use a McIntosh or any one of many available power amps. Either tube or SS will work with different benefits. Even "clean" power amps do have differences in the way they sound, but you don't need a real Mac to sound like Jerry and having one won't make up for issues with your playing or other tonal issues.

The Freyette PS2 or PS100 is similar but has the amp built in. This is a plus for convenience but a minus for flexibility. They use a clean tube power amp FWIW.

Either one is IMHO about as good as you can get for volume control without much tonal impact. It would be the way to go for the mid-1973 and earlier Garcia tones at any volume, with the power amp driving a pair of JBL's in the Twin Reverb's cabinet.

For later Garcia tones, pulling the signal from the preamp is more historically accurate, but if the channel volume on the twin is turned down slightly to where the amp stays clean, the power section of the Twin Reverb adds little coloration. Using the Suhr or PS will get you to pretty much the same place without modding your amp.

Note that you can use the external power amp to drive external cabs or you can use it to drive the built in speakers in the TR cab. Actually you can drive both at the same time or as many cabs as you want if you have enough amps. You could build your own WoS!
 #172815  by natebernstein
 
Doing a bit more research on the reactive-load option, I came across the Universal Audio OX box. Really seems like the ultimate solution for getting great guitar sounds in a home studio, with the ability to also attenuate and feed an amp cranked to the sweet spot direct to FOH with cab and speaker sims in a live gig situation. Among the IRs available seems to be a classic Garcia-style JBL 2x12. Expensive, but thinking this may be the way to go. Anyone out there use one?
 #172819  by Chocol8
 
I only demoed one. As far as feature set it is great, but I was not blown away by the sound of it as an attenuator compared to reamping with the Suhr and PS2. You could use it to reamp, but you are paying a hefty price upfront for that.

I also don't like being stuck in their cab sim world. I prefer open 3rd party IRs.

They seem to be pretty popular with studio guys and YouTubers though.
 #172852  by natebernstein
 
So, to put a bit of a bow on this thread, I decided against getting a JG-style guitar and instead bought a Milkman Pedal Steel Mini amp. Based on Tim Marcus' 85w pedal steel amp but rated 40w, with a 12" Jupiter ceramic speaker in a Princeton-sized cab. Lots of clean headroom powered by two 6L6s. I play steel, too, so this should be a good double-duty amp that I can gig as well as use in the studio. Thanks for the advice, folks!
 #172854  by Jon S.
 
Your steel on Coming Up Roses is beautiful. 8)