[Cumtax]

Hi, I am trying to chase piece by piece the Veneta tone but I am missing key components I think.
What do I mean by Veneta's tone?

Eh, it seems to me that jerry's stratocaster, as well as in many early 70's recordings when he used single coils, sounds like a cosmic peacock.
It's like it's distortion but “soft,” without peaks that still maintains a kind of cleanliness...? Using guitar buzzwords is hard because everything would lead one to think of soft-clipping overdrive. But I have a tube screamer, which has a tone that is not too spikey, and Earth Drive, which is more spikey (like a pushed fender) and neither of them gets to that softness that sounds like a peacock singing. It's like these overdrives get to “grindy” point, which is the opposite of what I hear in Veneta.

Maybe they are indeed trying to emulate an amp clipping and a pushed twin doesn't naturally sound like that? Could it be something that is clipping simultaneously on multiple EQ points but not on the treble frequencies?

At this point, I think it is not Garcia overdriving his rig but the system that recorded the show. Then I wonder if tape saturation is what I am looking for? I have read that Strymon Deco is very warm sounding and emulates tape saturation but I am not able to tell if that is the missing piece.

I have tried following this track in the past by buying a Reel Deel that emulates a tape recorder preamp but it was too trebly and grindy https://templodevices.com/products/reel ... on-pre-amp .

so maybe it's not the tape recorder preamp the key element but just the saturation that comes from recording a signal too loud? Dunno, I'm not a technician, I wanted to know what you guys think.

I'm obviously not interested in being 100% accurate however, I would like to get to the ballpark and get a my version of that peacock sound.

[lbpesq]

Can’t get the Veneta tone without the naked guy sitting on the wall behind you!

hehehehe

Bill, tgo

[Jon S.]

You might be overcomplicating it for yourself.

My 2 cents - try one of these with your existing pedals:

(1) EQ pedal - try up front and at the end of your board and in your effects loop - choose what works best for your application (I swear by the Boss GE7 but you have many more options)
https://www.boss.info/US/products/ge-7/

(2) Dumble-style overdrive (you can wet your toes with this one, which I own and is amazing value, for under $31 and if you don't like it, Amazon gives you up to 30 days to return it)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MTF1LYD?re ... title&th=1

(3) Bonus additional option: most of us already have one of more of each of these, if you do, too, it'll be free to try: start your effects chain with a compressor with minimal compression followed by a clean boost slightly above unity gain. Especially into a tube amp, just this could get you closer to what you're seeking.

Let us know what you eventually try and your findings.

[Jon S.]

May I also refer you to this recent thread of mine on the Telecaster Discussion Page Reissue (TDPRI). I think you'll find further helpful recommendations there:

https://www.tdpri.com/threads/whats-the ... d.1166835/

[Cumtax]

You might be overcomplicating it for yourself.

My 2 cents - try one of these with your existing pedals:

(1) EQ pedal - try up front and at the end of your board and in your effects loop - choose what works best for your application (I swear by the Boss GE7 but you have many more options)
https://www.boss.info/US/products/ge-7/

(2) Dumble-style overdrive (you can wet your toes with this one, which I own and is amazing value, for under $31 and if you don't like it, Amazon gives you up to 30 days to return it)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MTF1LYD?re ... title&th=1

(3) Bonus additional option: most of us already have one of more of each of these, if you do, too, it'll be free to try: start your effects chain with a compressor with minimal compression followed by a clean boost slightly above unity gain. Especially into a tube amp, just this could get you closer to what you're seeking.

Let us know what you eventually try and your findings.

Ok I don't know if you were peeking at me in my cantina while I was fiddling with pedals... well I guess great minds think alike or so they say

I snapshotted the frequency spectrum of a couple of sections of a 72 Bird Song '72 (11/12) Bird Song, not Veneta but the tone is close enough; one of these shots was on a peak note that sounds just like a peacock.
I used Empress ParaEQ MkII (emulated with a Zoia) and messed with shelf and boosted some ranges, I used a compressor and my JHS Moonshine (TS with a dumblesque mod engaged).

I have to say I'm getting closer but not having a spectrometer to see my signal, I stopped at an OK result. The result is a clean sound that, if pushed to get that "peacock bloom" becomes slightly grindy still.

I ordered an XLR cable on amazon to connect the DAW to the amp (twin tonemaster) in order to try to see how my signal behaves more precisely.

Tomorrow I will collect some data and I will see what I can do with my emulated parametric EQ.

Unfortunately there are a lot of variables because even by parameterizing the EQ, you still get a close static image but it is not guaranteed that the transients will then move the peaks exactly where I would like them to arrive to obtain that tone. Perhaps a more powerful EQ with more manipulable parameters would be better.

I still hear a compression that leads me to think of a tape saturation but I will explore that path after experimenting with the study of the frequencies that I can obtain.

[Cumtax]

You might be overcomplicating it for yourself.

Yea sometimes I get into obsessive Indiana Jones mode over these things when I should be studying to pass my clinical methodology exam

[PaulJay]

Hey, if you are talking about the peacock sound you are hearing, which could be described as a squealing sound. That comes with a picking technique that you might have to master. Roy Buchanan was an expert
at it, and Jerry admired his playing. As far as gear getting you there have fun
with the search.

[Cumtax]

Hey, if you are talking about the peacock sound you are hearing, which could be described as a squealing sound. That comes with a picking technique that you might have to master. Roy Buchanan was an expert
at it, and Jerry admired his playing. As far as gear getting you there have fun
with the search.

I know what you mean, those are the pinch harmonics he sometimes uses in bird song, but what I'm talking about is a core sound that you can hear in every song of that era (especially when he bends the G string)

[Cumtax]

Ok, so my XLR cable came in today and I've been able to experiment with my twin connected in my daw.
It mounts Weber Calis so I had to load JBL IRs to approximate an EQ that I could export into the "real world". As a base I used a typical Jerry setting 8\10 Treble, 6 Mids, 2\0 Bass

I noticed some interesting things when analyzing the frequency of the recording. Here are a few findings

• the mix stays mostly between 300Hz and 4kHz
• Jerry's guitar never goes above the 5kHz
• broad Q between 3kHz and 5kHz that is always there
• the frequency goes beloved 300\400Hz only when he uses chords that involve the low E
• the highest peaks are always between 1kHz and 2kHz
• this experiment confirms what Sarno once said here, that the meat of Jerry's "trebly" tones sit between 1kHz and 4kHz

here's the peak of the song 12:52ish


So the mix is heavily focused in the mid frequencies (low\high mids)

This is what I found about my Twin with JBL IR and the Jerry settings

• it's hard to focus on the same frequencies without an EQ lmao > "of course" I should add, these shows were probably mixed in some ways
• biggest peaks happen in the 800kHz, while in the recordings the biggest peaks happen between 1kHz and 2kHz. I find it hard to tame that frequency, even with the emulated parametric EQ on my Zoia underdriving that Q.
• it's hard to boost the Q between 3kHz and 5kHz without introducing more content above that > the unJerry highs, like Sarno said once
• I don't know where the overdriven "smooth glue" keeping it all together is coming from. I'm sure it's tape saturation at this point but I used some plugins and wasn't able to approximate such thing
• Tube screamer\Dumblesque pedal messes the EQ up but it can be used as a Jerry-rigged (get it? Jerry... lol) pedal to get into that mid-mixed territory
• Earth Drive really moves the EQ like a BF amp lol
• Stratoblaster introduces a huge amount of frequencies above the 5kHz. It's a nope for this

Now, I think the untamable 800kHz and the unjerry highs peaking through are what black face mid-scooped tone is all about, and well my Twin is an iteration of a regular BF Twin so I guess that's normal. I'll see the next days if a more powerful EQ can help me, probably in plugin format.

[Cumtax]

I forgot to say that with my Zoia and some experiments with shelf, x-pass filters and parametric mumbo-jumbo I managed to get a mid-forward tone that is closer to the tone I'm looking forward (still don't know what to do about the distortion though). I plan to record a few bars with and without the EQing to let you hear the differences.

Sorry for the diary-like multiposting, I hope you don't mind a crazy person leaving some experiments for the internet records

EDIT 2:

Forgot another important thing. I'm using an American Original 60s strat with rosewood neck, fresh strings. I changed pickups and mounted some '57 Alnico 3 . I don't know what strat Jerry was using in that record, I guess an early Alligator that mounted '54 pickups. Veneta strat was a '56

As for the pickups of the 50s, all of them are made with Alnico 3 but apparently they were all really Alnico 5. Some say the Alnico 5 of the 50s resembles the 3 of today, some say that the market uses Alnico 3 to emulate the sound of degaussed Alnico 5.

If we want to follow the legends about pickups, the A5 made in the 60s are the ones that had accentuated lows... so I don't think that accurate 50s Alnico 5 pickups would have made any difference on those two frequencies that I can't tame.

I won't even touch the rosewood neck conundrum because the key is clearly not there lmao

For me these things are not really important, at least not to justify such exaggerated behaviors on the EQ, but I'll leave this info for the internet records anyway

[Slewfoot2000]

While I certainly don’t have a definitive answer, here are some takeaways I have from the Veneta show:

- No other show sounds like it. And I don’t mean in that it’s great and singular musically (which it is), but instead that the actual recording sounds different than anything else. It’s not the most balanced recording. Jerry’s tone is a little darker than usual. A bit more wooly around the edges.

- The intense heat of the day likely played a strong role in that sound. The band was constantly going out of tune and it stands to reason the actual tapes were affected by this as well. It’s possible that tuning up or down a little from standard could help get you where you want to be. Take a listen to something like the He’s Gone from the show before in Berkeley. Same guitar yet completely different tone.

- I’ll agree than a good EQ pedal can likely go a long way with getting those tweaks. I just recently got a pristine GE-7 and it really does make a difference. Just be sure to get one that’s modded from someone like Analogman otherwise it will be noisy. Do you have JBL’s? That really is such an important piece of the puzzle, BUT that GE-7 just might be the next best thing.

- The most transparent overdrive I’ve yet encountered is the Nordland OD-R. It’s not cheap, but it’s very tweakable and very natural sounding. https://reverb.com/item/86880977-nordla ... 2024-green

- If you’re looking for more of a boost that makes the tone more exciting, it’s tough to beat the Thick Air. https://iocustomguitars.com/shop/ols/pr ... -air-pedal

One other thing interesting about the August / September 72 shows is that this run with the Sunburst Strat is the last run where Jerry used a completely stock, non-custom guitar. Everything after that (and partly before) was Alligator then an Irwin or Cripe. (Well, except for those 1981 Malkweg shows, but that’s a different story!) It’s possible the Sunburst Strat may have been shielded or something to that effect, but it doesn’t appear to be modded in any significant way.

Anyway, just my $0.02!

[Jon S.]

I just recently got a pristine GE-7 and it really does make a difference. Just be sure to get one that’s modded from someone like Analogman otherwise it will be noisy.

The newer (post 2020 or so) GE-7s are dead quiet. I know this for a fact - I own two of them.

Credit for what follows to James Freeman:

"The stock IC in the old through-hole GE-7 is TL022 which has a huge figure of 50 nV/√Hz of self noise. ...

The silver MXR M108S has MC33079 IC's (4.5) which are slightly quieter than the 5532 or 2134 in the Analog Man and Monte Allums mods.

The new SMT GE-7 comes with RC4558 which is also very quiet."

Bottom line: Sometimes newer IS better. Pass on the old GE-7s/pony up for a new one.

[Slewfoot2000]

^ Great to know! I had heard that the newer ones can’t be modded due to changes in the way they are made, but sounds like an improvement with the noise regardless!

[cyrusj83]

Ok, so my XLR cable came in today and I've been able to experiment with my twin connected in my daw.
It mounts Weber Calis so I had to load JBL IRs to approximate an EQ that I could export into the "real world". As a base I used a typical Jerry setting 8\10 Treble, 6 Mids, 2\0 Bass

I noticed some interesting things when analyzing the frequency of the recording. Here are a few findings

• the mix stays mostly between 300Hz and 4kHz
• Jerry's guitar never goes above the 5kHz
• broad Q between 3kHz and 5kHz that is always there
• the frequency goes beloved 300\400Hz only when he uses chords that involve the low E
• the highest peaks are always between 1kHz and 2kHz
• this experiment confirms what Sarno once said here, that the meat of Jerry's "trebly" tones sit between 1kHz and 4kHz

here's the peak of the song 12:52ish


So the mix is heavily focused in the mid frequencies (low\high mids)

This is what I found about my Twin with JBL IR and the Jerry settings

• it's hard to focus on the same frequencies without an EQ lmao > "of course" I should add, these shows were probably mixed in some ways
• biggest peaks happen in the 800kHz, while in the recordings the biggest peaks happen between 1kHz and 2kHz. I find it hard to tame that frequency, even with the emulated parametric EQ on my Zoia underdriving that Q.
• it's hard to boost the Q between 3kHz and 5kHz without introducing more content above that > the unJerry highs, like Sarno said once
• I don't know where the overdriven "smooth glue" keeping it all together is coming from. I'm sure it's tape saturation at this point but I used some plugins and wasn't able to approximate such thing
• Tube screamer\Dumblesque pedal messes the EQ up but it can be used as a Jerry-rigged (get it? Jerry... lol) pedal to get into that mid-mixed territory
• Earth Drive really moves the EQ like a BF amp lol
• Stratoblaster introduces a huge amount of frequencies above the 5kHz. It's a nope for this

Now, I think the untamable 800kHz and the unjerry highs peaking through are what black face mid-scooped tone is all about, and well my Twin is an iteration of a regular BF Twin so I guess that's normal. I'll see the next days if a more powerful EQ can help me, probably in plugin format.

Hey, this is pretty interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do it. My question is: how does one apply this to their own rig without the benefit of a visualization of the eq? Like, what would I be listening for/doing with my settings to dial in the eq to this range?

thanks!

[Cumtax]

Ok, so my XLR cable came in today and I've been able to experiment with my twin connected in my daw.
It mounts Weber Calis so I had to load JBL IRs to approximate an EQ that I could export into the "real world". As a base I used a typical Jerry setting 8\10 Treble, 6 Mids, 2\0 Bass

I noticed some interesting things when analyzing the frequency of the recording. Here are a few findings

• the mix stays mostly between 300Hz and 4kHz
• Jerry's guitar never goes above the 5kHz
• broad Q between 3kHz and 5kHz that is always there
• the frequency goes beloved 300\400Hz only when he uses chords that involve the low E
• the highest peaks are always between 1kHz and 2kHz
• this experiment confirms what Sarno once said here, that the meat of Jerry's "trebly" tones sit between 1kHz and 4kHz

here's the peak of the song 12:52ish


So the mix is heavily focused in the mid frequencies (low\high mids)

This is what I found about my Twin with JBL IR and the Jerry settings

• it's hard to focus on the same frequencies without an EQ lmao > "of course" I should add, these shows were probably mixed in some ways
• biggest peaks happen in the 800kHz, while in the recordings the biggest peaks happen between 1kHz and 2kHz. I find it hard to tame that frequency, even with the emulated parametric EQ on my Zoia underdriving that Q.
• it's hard to boost the Q between 3kHz and 5kHz without introducing more content above that > the unJerry highs, like Sarno said once
• I don't know where the overdriven "smooth glue" keeping it all together is coming from. I'm sure it's tape saturation at this point but I used some plugins and wasn't able to approximate such thing
• Tube screamer\Dumblesque pedal messes the EQ up but it can be used as a Jerry-rigged (get it? Jerry... lol) pedal to get into that mid-mixed territory
• Earth Drive really moves the EQ like a BF amp lol
• Stratoblaster introduces a huge amount of frequencies above the 5kHz. It's a nope for this

Now, I think the untamable 800kHz and the unjerry highs peaking through are what black face mid-scooped tone is all about, and well my Twin is an iteration of a regular BF Twin so I guess that's normal. I'll see the next days if a more powerful EQ can help me, probably in plugin format.

Hey, this is pretty interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do it. My question is: how does one apply this to their own rig without the benefit of a visualization of the eq? Like, what would I be listening for/doing with my settings to dial in the eq to this range?

thanks!

I'll get back to you in a few days. I'll have the final testings after Monday and I'll post my results