#161252  by TeeJay
 Wed May 09, 2018 7:04 pm
How can it be a e120 clone without a 4" voice coil?
 #161256  by Staemius
 Wed May 09, 2018 10:20 pm
Gotta push those k120 and E120's - can be tricky for the small to medium clubs we most play. Purple Haze at 40 watts fits the bill - a bit smoother, less bright, ringing endorsement by Brad Sarno and Trey used them for the 50th show. If you buy new, look for a dealer who will break them in for a few extra bucks.
 #161268  by mkaufman
 Thu May 10, 2018 3:34 pm
waldo041 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 4:22 pm
Staemius wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 7:10 am
I love my K-120 double cab but have been experimenting with a Purple Haze lately - I feel I don't always push the k-120's enough to get past the 'brittle' aluminum cap sound sometimes and the Purple Haze avoids that and will get you in JBL territory (but is expensive). I'd also recommend an older Peavy Black Widow with aluminum cap and interchangeable basket - great sounding IMO and can still be found on the cheap.
My Experienced view is this, if the K120's are brittle or "Ice Picky" then the preamp and or amp is not set up correctly. Even at a lower volume! It is not the Dust cap causing it. This usually turns out to be an impedance mismatch from preamp to amp. The preamps output capacitor and the amps input resistance create a High Pass Filter. Get it wrong and you will lose all the low end. The speaker won't fix that. The problem is further exasperated with the amazing dB level of 103 for the e120!

4 Inch Voice Coil

~waldo
How does one confirm/remedy the impedance mismatch?
 #161270  by waldo041
 Thu May 10, 2018 7:56 pm
mkaufman wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 3:34 pm
How does one confirm/remedy the impedance mismatch?
http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com ... hp#answer1

preamps output capacitance (.02mfd for a jerry preamp tap)

and an

amps input impedance/resistance (200k/250k for a mac)

usually these numbers can be found in the preamp/amp spec sheet(s). You may have a stock .01 mfd for the output capacitance. Whatever capacitance you have plug it in to that calculator and then do the same for the amp you are using to find the cutoff point.

http://www.muzique.com/schem/filter.htm

For those that understand this up to this point. this means if you only have one amp to use and you know it's input impedance, you can change the preamps output capacitor to a value that gets you closer. It also means I provided you with the base range to cut out any sub bass harmonics.

I really do hope this info helps someone. We see it all over in the Jerry Rig context. at the input, the coupling stages, and then finally the output. It is what the Buffer was used to combat in the coupling of the guitar to the amps .

~waldo
hippieguy1954 liked this
 #161285  by Jimv
 Sat May 12, 2018 1:58 pm
amps input impedance/resistance (200k/250k for a mac)
So I'm working with an sms classic (.01 output, if I get it..)
The amp Im using is like a carvin dcm knockoff, w input values at 44k (ballanced)/22k(unballanced)
I looked up the Carvin DCM200l specs and it says 20k input. This is very close to what I'm working with, but a ways from 200k/250k.
I ran numbers through the calculators, and, if I'm doing it right, They are really high.
My rig is not icepicky, maybe a teeny tiny bit, but lack some low end, like frequencies not there.. (a little bit)
Really what I'm wondering, is if there is a way, hehe, to create a variable impeadance in-between, or is the only or easiest solution the switch out preamp output cap, as one switches between amps?
 #161286  by waldo041
 Sat May 12, 2018 2:55 pm
double post :D

~waldo
Last edited by waldo041 on Mon May 14, 2018 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #161287  by waldo041
 Sat May 12, 2018 4:21 pm
Jimv wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 1:58 pm
Really what I'm wondering, is if there is a way, hehe, to create a variable impeadance in-between, or is the only or easiest solution the switch out preamp output cap, as one switches between amps?
The variable capacitance was my solution. A switch with multiple values to help if you have different input impedance amps. As I did at one time.

You can't recreate the mid/low end, fundamentals and harmonics, that are getting cut off before they reach the amp and speaker(s), and if you never knew it was there, you just acclimate yourself to the rig and adjust accordingly. High Pass filtering is an important part of the rig. As you have just found out, when your numbers are not right your guitar is being robbed of some serious mid-low end loss at that node. The capacitor is the component that should be changed if needed. Let us know what the change does!

You need a 400v .2mFd Mylar, something like this.

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/c ... axial-lead
C-MD22-630

that should help get you a little bit closer.


~waldo
hippieguy1954 liked this
 #161290  by Jimv
 Sun May 13, 2018 11:12 am
Too intriguing. Yes yes, there is lower stuff just not there. Its lacking in both my strat and a hollowbody I play. The SMS is so incredibly juicy and clear, it is easy to identify the missing ingredients.
(gulp) part ordered...

Alas, as I am a 48 yo single father gone back to school... I won't be able to dig into this for another month, but in the meantime, I'll see if I can figure out how to make my mics talk to my laptop for an A/B.

I have done a lot of soldering, installing crossovers in speakers, but not on a board, I am assuming the output cap is last in line, back there w the output level knob, but, this will be a new adventure... time to educate....

Yes, anyone interested, I will report back on the results this summer sometime!

Thanks a million, Waldo!!!
waldo041 liked this
 #161303  by skajellafetty
 Mon May 14, 2018 3:03 pm
fwiw I think my Weber ceramic California with aluminum dome sounds very Jerry.
https://www.tedweber.com/cali12f

I also have a ceramic Weber Chicago (paper dome). I power them with a old H&K cf200 I've had since early 90's. I use the jg sms classic in a Helix loop, and often split signal so the Stupor OD (Helix's boss sd-1 model) goes down own path to Right output to end up at the Chicago, while the clean goes to the Cali. When blended tg using cf200 levels it sounds killer.

Also regarding Helix, with their octave ("simple pitch") going into mu-tron III model ("mutant filter"), using the Helix crossover split ability between them in the chain & only sending around 800Hz through normally and everything above attenuated by approx -12dB works great to help dial in that stuff.
paulinnc liked this
 #161315  by Jon S.
 Wed May 16, 2018 7:09 am
Curious if anyone here has tried the Celestion Neo Copperback.

"It's definitely not the “brown sound”, but for those wanting more transparency and less midrange vocal intensity the Neo 250 reveals the best from your amplifier and playing without additional colouration. The speaker's unique response has a tight low end, neutral low mids, a clear, open upper-mid definition and well-controlled high treble, meaning you can shift from shimmering tubular-bell-like cleans to “flute-like” high gain with simply a tweak of the drive knob. Rated at a monstrous 250-watts, the Neo 250 works together with your amp to provide unparalleled dynamics, delivering all the headroom and touch sensitivity you could possibly need. And built with a neodymium magnet, you get all this power and tone weighing in at a modest 5.5lb (2.6kg)."

https://celestion.com/product/199/neo_250_copperback/
 #161322  by Incaroads77
 Wed May 16, 2018 10:42 am
Someone in another thread was mentioning those mean green jbl style cones. Something about the speakers being not so great and the gentlemen that makes them being somewhat shady.
 #161374  by Jon S.
 Sat May 19, 2018 8:22 am
Jon S. wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:09 am
Curious if anyone here has tried the Celestion Neo Copperback.

"It's definitely not the “brown sound”, but for those wanting more transparency and less midrange vocal intensity the Neo 250 reveals the best from your amplifier and playing without additional colouration. The speaker's unique response has a tight low end, neutral low mids, a clear, open upper-mid definition and well-controlled high treble, meaning you can shift from shimmering tubular-bell-like cleans to “flute-like” high gain with simply a tweak of the drive knob. Rated at a monstrous 250-watts, the Neo 250 works together with your amp to provide unparalleled dynamics, delivering all the headroom and touch sensitivity you could possibly need. And built with a neodymium magnet, you get all this power and tone weighing in at a modest 5.5lb (2.6kg)."

https://celestion.com/product/199/neo_250_copperback/
No one here yet, I guess. I may have to become the first. :drink:
 #161375  by pula58
 Sat May 19, 2018 10:31 am
O.K., some speaker talk..
Mean Green - I tried, not a success to my ears. Cone cry, even driven by a 22W Deluxe Reverb type of amplifier. It was also lacking treble and detail.
The guy was honest to deal with though, for me. I returned the speaker and he refunded me. If he could perfect the speaker it might be decent.

Recent speaker success for me boils down to what can sound loud and clean, is reasonably efficient, and has no cone cry, and is not harsh. I have, in a way, given up on new production JBL search. Loud, clean, not harsh and it is good enough for me with appropriate tone settings on amp, guitar and effects.
1) Eminence EM12N - Kind of a NEO magnet EVM 12L, sort of. Loud, clean, and light weight (because of NEO magnet)
2) Jensen Raptor - Not sure what this is a take on, but it sounds good. Clean, and loud, and nice overall tone. has high end detail, but not ice picky or harsh.
3) Eminence Wheelhouse - Kind of an EV 12L with Cannabis Rex (hemp) speaker cone, and NEO magnet. Nice, loud, clean, efficient, light weight.

I tried Tone Tubby Purple Haze, and Winterland when they first came out. Terrible cone cry. And this was even with the speaker on the lab test bench (not in a cab), a 22W amplifier could easily make the speaker exhibit cone cried badly, and I also tested them with two other amplifier to make sure it wasn't the amplifier causing the trouble. Total fail..big disappointment because they sounded good. I have not seen other reports of the thin cone tone tubbies having cone cry, so, I tent to think it's because they had not yet dialed-in the manufacturing process yet.

Weber California: I tried the Ceramic magnet version, with paper dust cap, and with large screen dust cap also. I never tried the aluminum dustcap. It wasn't a bad speaker, but I never bonded with it. Interestingly, the large screen dustcap sounded more bright and lively than the paper dustcap version (contrary to verbiage on Weber website).
Weber Neo: Not sure if they make it anymore. Didn't bond with it. Nothing bad to say about it, but nothing great to say about it. Seemed noticeably inefficient compared to JBL D120F (K120). It had a kind of harshness to it to my ear.
 #161376  by TeeJay
 Sat May 19, 2018 10:45 am
Recent speaker success for me boils down to what can sound loud and clean, is reasonably efficient, and has no cone cry, and is not harsh. I have, in a way, given up on new production JBL search. Loud, clean, not harsh and it is good enough for me with appropriate tone settings on amp, guitar and effects.
https://youtu.be/9sFVbgU3TqE

http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speake ... del=PF_350
 #161377  by Jon S.
 Sat May 19, 2018 11:05 am
"Net Weight 21.5 lbs, 9.75 kg"

No thanks! :oops: