#171956  by FranklinsTower
 
i am extremely happy for bob and the band being able to continue playing and also am grateful that the music is reaching a bit of a new crowd of people also. it brings me real joy to know that music is being carried on to another generation.

the thing is the grateful dead were/are something deeply spiritual for me. the music changed my life profoundly on many levels and over the years i have formed ideas and opinions about why that it (that many of you may not share or even disagree with). i think the dead were up to something deeply spiritual and a big part of that was egolessness. im not being naive here and i know none of the members were/are perfect-- far from it actually. but they were able to enter a place onstage where something bigger than them came through and it touched lives in very deep ways. my life has been profoundly altered by participating in their music both on cd and seeing them live. finding their music allowed me to see beyond the culture, class and education i had received up to that point. it pointed and introduced me to something "other" and an entirely new paradigm unfolded.

i think a big part of this was jerry's style and approach. i have never even one time got distracted while listening to jerry play and there is always a deep sense of something "other" coming through him, an energy and a feeling that is hard to define. over the years i have come to see that as "god" coming through but obviously many people would use a different term than that to describe the same phenomenon.

and i was able to find this special power, the spirituality of it listening to cd's and tapes. its there and you dont have to see them live to participate in it. and since the dead were so generous allowing people to record shows we have so many powerful shows to choose from. there is no need to see them live to have the experience. it is captured on cd amazingly.

i dont get that experience with dead and co. sure there are hints of it but it seems to be there because of what once was and not because of what is happening now at leaste not even close to the same degree.

mayer is a big problem for me. he plays too long, too verbose and it (in my estimation) comes way more from a place of ego and self that just wasn't present with jerry. it is polluting even though he is an amazing talent. i think both players have an effect on the rest of the band for better and worse. i cannot surrender body mind and soul to a dead and co show.

it is the spirituality of the dead's approach, of the music, the lyrics and of the power that came through them and mayer certainly diminishes this greatly for me. it would have been better to keep the dso jerry imo but i can see why they did not.


edit-- the thing is i dont place the grateful dead or the jerry garcia band in the same category as any other band. there are lots and lots of bands that i love. fela kuti, talking heads, alice coltrane, cowboy junkies etc. there are so many good bands and great musicians. but the dead are not in that category for me. they are the only ones who did what they did-- they entered the "other" and brought people with them in a uniquely powerful way. dead and co is a great band, a hell of a great band, but they are no longer in that category that the dead occupy and for that reason its not possible for me to listen without being let down.
Last edited by FranklinsTower on Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 #171957  by lbpesq
 
Well thought out post. I couldn’t agree more about the spiritual element of the band. A live show, when they were on, was a very special experience, akin to a full religious experience without the religion messing it up. And the audience was truly part of the band. We were all one. Dead shows have had a huge, life-altering effect on me for the past 50 years

I’m not so down on JM. But, just like with Warren Haynes, Jimmy Herring, Trey Anastasio, and John K., fine guitarists all, it just ain’t Jerry.

Bill, tgo
 #171962  by Jon S.
 
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 #171963  by Jon S.
 
Disagree re: Mayer. I started to type why but stopped and deleted what I'd typed because it doesn't matter. If, for anyone and for any reason, nothing but Jerry will do, to each his own and it ain't no crime. Take a pass on Dead and Company's shows and replay old tapes instead. I'm just glad Bob Weir seemingly feels as I do. I agree there wasn't and will never be another Jerry. I simply don't place that expectation on Mayer's shoulders. I accept and dig his musicality for itself.
 #171967  by Smolder
 
The last thing I’m interested in is someone emulating Jerry. Even when I go see local tribute bands, if they aren’t adding something of their own to this canon of music, I’d rather be home listening to old shows.

I think D&C are killing it on all levels. I’ve watched a half dozen shows, listened to all of this years tour and it’s really great. Especially John, who’s playing of this music is wonderful. I really don’t care if they are making bank… I’ve never begrudged someone’s ability to profit doing what they love. This is a step forward… the evolution we should be looking forward to.

But… some people don’t like change. And that’s a shame, because it’s one of a handful of thing a person can count on.
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 #171969  by lbpesq
 
Don’t get me wrong, I like Mayer. He’s one of my wife’s favorites so I was familiar with him before he started playing with D&C. He’s a very talented singer, songwriter, and player. And I appreciate what he does with D&C. I guess I really only want to clarify the two things I am trying to convey.

I have seldom in my life, if ever, experienced the pure rapture I often experienced at actual Grateful Dead shows. Not The Other Ones, not Further. I really enjoyed seeing these iterations sans Jerry, loved the music, but no rapture, if that makes any sense.

I don’t view D&C as the continuation of the GD. Rather, I see them as one of several Dead-inspired groups, on the same level as P&F, DSO, JRAD, etc., all of whom are very enjoyable bands. I just don’t view D&C as the GD with some player replacements.

And, let me add, these days, (and equally pre-Covid), I’m more likely to see someone in a small venue and very less likely to see anyone in a stadium or arena setting.

Bill, tgo
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 #171970  by Smolder
 
lbpesq wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:10 pm Don’t get me wrong, I like Mayer. He’s one of my wife’s favorites so I was familiar with him before he started playing with D&C. He’s a very talented singer, songwriter, and player. And I appreciate what he does with D&C. I guess I really only want to clarify the two things I am trying to convey.

I have seldom in my life, if ever, experienced the pure rapture I often experienced at actual Grateful Dead shows. Not The Other Ones, not Further. I really enjoyed seeing these iterations sans Jerry, loved the music, but no rapture, if that makes any sense.

I don’t view D&C as the continuation of the GD. Rather, I see them as one of several Dead-inspired groups, on the same level as P&F, DSO, JRAD, etc., all of whom are very enjoyable bands. I just don’t view D&C as the GD with some player replacements.

And, let me add, these days, (and equally pre-Covid), I’m more likely to see someone in a small venue and very less likely to see anyone in a stadium or arena setting.

Bill, tgo
I agree with all of this. I have an eleven year old and I’d like to pass as much of what I gained from the Grateful Dead, this music, the community, as I can along to him. This is the only concert experience that comes close in my opinion. And yes… I saw the dead, further, Phil and his variations, DSO, Billy and the Kids… and I’m quite solid in my strategy. This music was indescribably impactful in my life. He’s getting a sense of the larger experience… the rest will await his readiness.
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 #171971  by FranklinsTower
 
^^^^

yes. even though dead and co are not the grateful dead for me and not on that level i am so grateful it is being carried onto another generation.

i took my 11 year old daughter to see dso in an outdoor mountain venue. it was glorious and i am so grateful that what the dead did can continue in all of its forms.
 #171983  by carlo zakers
 
NeilG1 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:02 am Yeah Bobby did say this - heard it on a podcast but can’t remember which. Was very bizarre. Said you play louder when you play fast, and that a quiet stage is a critical element to good performance.
I didn’t get it then and I don’t get it now?
Maybe that’s why Mayer wears headphones now ;)
that is a bad habit you only see in very poor musicians ... they get excited and play faster and louder ... Bobby apparently realized what a bunch of hacks he had assembled, and found that slowing everything down, at the expense of the music sounding right, was the only way to control it ... like babysitting kindergartners ... this is a sure sign of poor musicianship, and i'm surprised he admitted it ...
it's funny how they never had this problem with Jerry and Phil and Brent playing, eh? ...
 #171984  by Jon S.
 
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 #171985  by Jon S.
 
I've been to four Dead and Company shows so far and hope to take in many more.

At every one of those shows, some songs were slowed down, others played at tempos falling well within the normal range of tempos the Grateful Dead played them at (e.g., think of Friend of the Devil), and other songs and jam segments, including segments that pushed up against if not entered Phishy-fusion terrritory, were "flying."

My point is careful with generalizations that aren't borne out by the realities of the shows.

May I add, if your fundamentalistic about hearing the Grateful Dead covered (and lets face it, anything other than the Dead with Jerry is a cover no matter whether it's Dead and Company, DSO, or your buddies and you) exactly as they played it originally, as I've suggested previously, maybe just skip Dead and Company, it's not your cup of meat.

Also, I, personally, find it hard to take seriously opinions from people whose musical assessments of Burbridge, Chimenti, and Mayer are that they are kindergardeners and hacks.

I hope I've put this respectfully. If I missed the mark, apologies for my imperfections.
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 #171986  by strumminsix
 
carlo zakers wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:36 pm that is a bad habit you only see in very poor musicians ... they get excited and play faster and louder ...
Very true.
carlo zakers wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:36 pm Bobby apparently realized what a bunch of hacks he had assembled
I've never heard anyone call Bill, Mickey, Otiel, and Rob hacks before.
carlo zakers wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:36 pm slowing everything down, at the expense of the music sounding right, was the only way to control it ... like babysitting kindergartners ... this is a sure sign of poor musicianship, and i'm surprised he admitted it ...
it's funny how they never had this problem with Jerry and Phil and Brent playing, eh? ...
I'd argue that keeping great timing in you 30s and 40s is probably a lot harder than in your 70s when for most, energy is a struggle.


My experience seeing older musicians is that it's a struggle keeping their energy even. Further, Bobby said "good performance" which means controlling speeds, not slowing down. You combine those, their ages (Bobby's 74, Mickey 78 and Bill 75 ), and think it's a fair assumption that it's a combination of things with being "hacks" having nothing to do with it...
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 #171987  by Smolder
 
Most of those ‘slowed down’ songs were played much slower during the Grateful Dead tenure… then we saw the hectic mess that a 70’s rock and roll lifestyle causes. Bobby has an obsession with tempo. Every song has tempo variants noted in the spread sheet, and with Ratdog he used to set up setlists primarily by tempo using bell curves for each set (slow > fast > slow). This is be design and not because of age.

He hangs a note or chord out there so that you can watch it change colors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
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 #171988  by lbpesq
 
carlo zakers wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:36 pmthat is a bad habit you only see in very poor musicians ... they get excited and play faster and louder ... Bobby apparently realized what a bunch of hacks he had assembled, and found that slowing everything down, at the expense of the music sounding right, was the only way to control it ... like babysitting kindergartners ... this is a sure sign of poor musicianship, and i'm surprised he admitted it ...
it's funny how they never had this problem with Jerry and Phil and Brent playing, eh? ...

I took this post as being tongue-in-cheek. Even with all the varying opinions about D&C, I strongly suspect that most of us are accomplished enough as musicians to recognize that the non-Dead members of D&C are damn good players and about as far from”hacks” as one can be.

Jon S. wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:39 am.
May I add, if your fundamentalistic about hearing the Grateful Dead covered (and lets face it, anything other than the Dead with Jerry is a cover no matter whether it's Dead and Company, DSO, or your buddies and you) exactly as they played it originally, as I've suggested previously, maybe just skip Dead and Company, it's not your cup of meat.

LOVE me a good Mighty Quinn reference!

Bill, tgo
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 #171989  by Chocol8
 
Some great discussion here.

I definitely don’t think any of the “new” members of D&C can be called hacks. They are extremely talented musicians. I also don’t think JM has approached the material with anything close to an ego. If you watch his live streams and pod casts, he comes across as approaching Garcia’s work with great reverence and humility. He has matured quite a bit from the guy he was 10+ years ago.

A couple interesting points to toss out, a bit off topic but tangentially related in terms of the music being enjoyed by the next generation.

First, I have some younger guys at my house this week working on outdoor stone steps and a patio. Although too young to have seen either live, their work music has been a mix of dead and Garcia band.

Second, for other reasons, I ended up looking at this week’s Billboard Artist 100 chart today. The Grateful Dead is at number 14 , just two spots below Taylor Swift and three below Billie Eilish, and ahead of newer generation artists like Megan Thee Stallion, BTS, Post Malone, and Kanye, as well as ALL of the other “classic” bands on the list, including those that are still active or semi-active. They are still very relevant 26+ years after the last show.
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