Grateful Dead Music Forum

A place to talk about the music of the Grateful Dead 

 #91978  by tigerstrat
 Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:32 pm
Maybe we could at least give TL cred for being the Steve Kerr/John Paxson/guy who makes the winning shot at the buzzer after Jordan unexpectedly dishes off, instead of taking the shot... no? Then again these NYers might kinda hate all these Bulls analogies. :twisted:
 #91986  by TI4-1009
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:41 am
I'm still stuck on "corroboratory". I was only an English major for a year before I switched to Zoology.. :!: But I am enjoying the discussion.

I think for $32,000 Tom should throw in Parish to sleep with the guitar.

Last edited by TI4-1009 on Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #91992  by JonnyBoy
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:09 am
no, if you want Doug, it will cost over 100K to get him up and in the shop!! :shock: He's in retirement. Thomas is his legacy, illegitimate or not, still in close relations with Doug and the men and women that started all this, maybe he was a tad younger and considered an "apprentice" at the time, he is now a big boy in the scene and earned all the accolades, and has the last of the torched flame, I am sure Matt agrees. Not knowing Thomas' part in history is irrelevant, Doug should have been more up front about his staff and helpers, not condemn Thomas for that or give him less Kudos. He is Spud Webb in my book. What Thomas did or not doesn't matter, he was a direct apprentice of Doug and that is who gets the flame in the carpentry world when the master retires. Its American/European tradition and should be respected if that is in question here. There is a little bit of speculation about the fact Thomas did leave and not stay his whole career, but Doug makes the call on who he dubs his predecessor. By the fact you can contact Doug for work through Thomas' site is enough to believe Doug left that to him. That's my opinion and 2cnts worth of crap. Anywhose.....

Matt's work is stunning and Thomas is the closest thing to Doug or "the hands of history" as you can get, much like considering Alembic to be so also. I would be proud to own either. :peas:
 #91997  by waldo041
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:00 am
sorry brothers, and i love thomas and know his legacy. in fact I clued him on some things known about tiger, wolf, and rosebud and he has done the same for me about it's INITIAL building process. but he'll be the first to tell you he wasn't there when irwin put it all together. i have done immense research on jerrys irwin guitars and have actually held a few, and have played several moriarty's. hands down, MORIARTY luthiers the most complete replica of any of those guitars. the neck joint, back oval and back carving for starters is off or not there altogether on liebers. the pickup plate is different, and it is missing the 5 way and jack plate brass. maybe nitpickin here, but if you are going for a TRUE replica made by a MASTER luthier, matt moriarty makes/made THE BEST on this planet! if you want a very nice jerry'esque axe also made by a MASTER luthier, Thomas Lieber sells a great guitar for a 3rd more then a true replica. it is AWESOME we have any of those choices at all, it was not too long ago when there was only one guy that built them, but he stopped doing that!

 #91998  by playingdead
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:19 am
I think we're arguing apples and oranges here ... or basketballs and footballs.

If you want a Tiger-inspired guitar at a reasonable price, and want it built by someone who was associated with the original Irwin build, then Thomas is the guy to go to. His American Beauty guitars fill that niche.

If you want a Tiger-inspired guitar, no expense spared, built by someone who was associated with the original Irwin build, then I'm sure Thomas would be happy to make a Tiger like the one on his website for $32k.

However ...

If you want a Tiger guitar that is as close to the original in every detail possible, Matt's guitar is as close as you are going to get, down to the shape, inlays, brass, and so forth. Note the fact that Thomas' top-of-the-line Tiger lacks the back inlay work, and forgoes some of the brass on the top (which, in my opinion, better highlights the cocobolo by eliminating the jack and pickup selector plates). It also eliminates the brass running from the inlaid plate down to the strap button.

You can argue that Thomas' high-dollar Tiger is aesthetically more beautiful than Matt's guitars, although I would suggest strongly that the photography has a lot to do with that, because that guitar was professionally photographed in a studio, and Matt's was not. However, Thomas' guitar is more streamlined and cleaner than the original in many ways.

But here is some pretty compelling visual evidence that Matt's guitar is structurally "closer" to the real thing.

First, a photo of Jerry with his Tiger, when it was still in pristine shape:


Now, Thomas's Tiger, American Beauty and Matt's Tiger, scaled to be about the same size.


Note the brass work as mentioned, but also take careful note of where the neck is set relative to the upper horn ... on the original Tiger, and Matt's guitar, it's at the last inlaid fret, two frets above the J. GARCIA inlay. On Thomas' guitars, it's two frets higher than that. There are also some subtle differences in the carving of the horns; Thomas' upper horn appears to be a bit more sculpted and pointy.

The American Beauty guitar is a completely different instrument, but it does show that Thomas prefers to set the neck farther into the body than the original neck was. On the American Beauty, the lower horn's position is higher, as well.

I think both are excellent guitars, but I also think that Thomas' build is more his vision of an ultimate Tiger-inspired instrument, with some aesthetic improvements (pickup surround, for example), while Matt's carefully pays homage to the original instrument itself, down to the smallest details.
 #91999  by jdsmodulus
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:31 am
Thanks for the detail Vic. Now if Im buying (which Im not) I would take the 3rd one or the farthest to the right in the pics. That is Matts! Just sayin!
 #92000  by playingdead
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:37 am
One more thing I just noticed ... neither guitar has the tiger inlay just exactly perfect, there is more space below the inlaid tiger on the plate on Jerry's guitar. Back to the drawing board!
 #92002  by JonnyBoy
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:02 am
Points well made by all, I just think in tradition Thomas should be recognized as Irwin's apprentice and good friend, maybe even the final extention of Irwin's legacy since Irwin seems to support this. I also think Thomas would gladly make any changes and additions to details for the same money I am sure! Both men are worth their weight in gold to devote themselves to this niche market that isn't the biggest money maker in the ways of carpentry! I am glad this is a happy ending to this topic. :smile:
 #92015  by Chuckles
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:04 pm
Never held either man's build, but have seen Matt's work up close, and it's stunning (specifically, Bob Guerra's Wolf). I agree with JB on the notion of a master/apprentice relationship and with that comes the apprentice's license - some would say obligation - to expand and build on what was learned from the master once he becomes a master himself.

One question regarding Matt's work... Waldo posted all those amazing pics last year - of Rosebud, I think it was? - and iirc many of the sandwich layers didn't line up evenly. If Matt builds a Rosebud, is this included, or does he neaten it up a bit? I mean, how authentic is authentic? Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to stir anything up, but how many people playing one of Matt's actually have the same high action as Garcia/use Vinci's, etc?

They're both incredible builders. As stated, the world's a much better place for having them both in it and we're lucky to have them. Matt's new "economy" line are beautiful guitars, but man, that's still a lot of scratch...
 #92019  by hogan
 Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:49 pm
Tony, Tone, Toni does it again.

This thread sucks and at least one person in it is double posting under another alias. IP addresses
don't lie.
 #92037  by Grant
 Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:36 am
I meant the Moriarty Rosebud pics you referred to a couple of posts ago
 #92048  by strumminsix
 Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:39 am
hogan wrote:Tony, Tone, Toni does it again.

This thread sucks and at least one person in it is double posting under another alias. IP addresses
don't lie.
Call it out. Who done it?

Mr. ___________
In the Moriarty thread
With an alias