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Musical Theory Abound!!!
 #42617  by HOWEYMAN
 Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:26 am
I was dinking around jamming and I was playing a Bb on the 6th fret barre. I then played C# with my index finger over the 6th fret to pay C#. This sounds really cool and it fits. My question is, if C is the second degree in the Key of Bb, why does this C# fit in with the Bb? It should be Cm for a second degree chord (which sounds good, but has a totally different sound and feel of course). This works all the way down the neck with the 1 chord fitting with a sharpened 2nd. Any theory here?

 #42622  by spilly
 Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:37 am
the C# is part of the Bb blues scale. which allows you to put a minor 3rd (i.e. C# over Bb) in with your dominate major. it's the same as throwing a G over top of E major when jammin on the blues

 #42624  by spilly
 Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:09 am
oh yeah, if you would like to play said intervale with full chords I'd recommend Bb major to C#7.

 #42635  by HOWEYMAN
 Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:40 pm
spilly wrote:the C# is part of the Bb blues scale. which allows you to put a minor 3rd (i.e. C# over Bb) in with your dominate major. it's the same as throwing a G over top of E major when jammin on the blues
a flatted 3rd. which is C# in the key of Bb. got it. thanks. Is this called a "passing chord" as well?

 #42669  by spilly
 Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:42 pm
yes this is a "passing chord" when religated to this particular usage. in more traditionally based theories, This type of movement would trigger a key change, or end a phase. In a more modern (i.e. the last 150 years) this type of change has become more common to standard progressions as music has become more dissonant by nature. Enjoy, you've stumbled upon jazz
 #89945  by direwolf1989
 Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:27 pm
Well, in the key of Bb, there is no theoretical C#, you would call it Db, so you're playin a Bb Major chord with Db in the bass so the chord is Bb/Db, what makes it sound cool is the clash between th Db in the bass and the D natural being played on the G string (the voicing i believe your talking about). that difference between the two notes is what makes it sound so interesting
 #90000  by brbadg
 Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:59 am
It sounds a lot like the ending to Golden Road.This is an awful chord,I have to say.
 #90005  by tigerstrat
 Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:02 am
Please don't mix "b" and "#" in notation. Choose one or the other and be consistent. It's either A# and C# or Bb and Db. In this case I would use flats so you don't run into double-sharps.

"Sharp 9" usually is short for "7 sharp 9", but the proposed "Bb major triad + Db" chord has no 7.

I can't figure out how Howey did this: "I was playing a Bb on the 6th fret barre. I then played C# with my index finger over the 6th fret to pay C#." Where is there a Db at that position other than 6th fret on the G string (which was presumably already being fretted at fret 7 for the D natural in Bb major? If that's what the poster is referring to, that would be a flattening of Bb's major 3rd, changing a Bb major triad to Bb minor. The alternative is to play the Db on the 1st string 9th fret with the pinky, keeping the D natural barred, and resulting in a funky dissonant chord
 #91664  by Mick
 Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:04 pm
tigerstrat wrote:I can't figure out how Howey did this: "I was playing a Bb on the 6th fret barre. I then played C# with my index finger over the 6th fret to pay C#." Where is there a Db at that position other than 6th fret on the G string (which was presumably already being fretted at fret 7 for the D natural in Bb major? If that's what the poster is referring to, that would be a flattening of Bb's major 3rd, changing a Bb major triad to Bb minor. The alternative is to play the Db on the 1st string 9th fret with the pinky, keeping the D natural barred, and resulting in a funky dissonant chord
You make a good point here, the post is unclear on exactly what Howey was doing at the time. After reading it again, I thought of it this way: If he was barring a Bb at the 6th fret, he was using movable E shape, so presumably he had this:

String 1: Barred w/ index finger = Bb
String 2: Barred w/ index finger = F
String 3: Middle finger on fret 7 = D
String 4: Pinky on fret 8 = Bb
String 5: Ring finger on fret 8 = F
String 6: Barred w/ index finger = Bb

Or at least that is what I would have done if you told me to play a barred Bb at the 6th fret. But the next step is unclear, he says he used his index finger to play C# (Db) at the 6th fret, the only way I can see to do that is to pick up both my index finger and middle finger, and fret string #3 on 6 with my index finger. This would leave me strumming only strings 3-5 like this:

String 3: Index finger on fret 6 = Db
String 4: Pinky on fret 8 = Bb
String 5: Ring finger on fret 8 = F

I would submit that what this really is, is an inverted (513) Bb minor. This is consistent with what Howey wrote, but sounds trivial, just the conversion from E major movable shape to E minor movable shape. He could have accomplished the same result by just picking up his middle finger and strumming all 6. This would of course work up and down the neck, as would what I wrote above.