Grateful Dead Music Forum

A place to talk about the music of the Grateful Dead 

 #51586  by jeffm725
 Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:46 pm
terry check your pm

 #51587  by jonarobb
 Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:47 pm
jeffm725 wrote:yeah in my circles we always called it the stronger than dirt jam, but it is not that either, this is really its own jam

here is the way we had it arranged,
before I get there, by the way, there is also an Ebmin in there which is subsituted for the G#min on the last time before it goes to the single note odd time "riffs".

Also there is a diminshed chord in there,in the midst of all this, I call it eb dim7, (I know, I know could be c dim7, or Gb or A!!!)
here is the fingering of where I start the diminshed and then I obviously will swing it down 3 frets up 3 frets, up 6 frets, up 9 frets. The normal dimisihed inversion like you would do on Let it grow or slipknot.

x diminished7


Here is the arrangement leading up to the 'riff"
note: this is how we arranged it, the Deads arrangement was loose and pretty musch different almost every night.
It does help to have a set number of bars arranged as to keep the band tight>

Here goes...

Riding along in emaj7

and then:
1st time:
G#min 8 bars >>>>Emaj7 8 bars

2nd Time
G#min 8 bars>>>>Emaj7 8 bars

3rd time
Ebmin 4 bars>>EbDim7 4 bars>>Emaj7 8 bars

4th time
Ebmin 4 bars >> To Riff **

Riff repeats 4 times and then Goes to the Dmin for 8 bars, after 8 bars of Dmin, the whole "Riff">Dimin sequence repeats (we did the "Riff" >>Dmin sequence 4 times and off the 4th Dminor instead of going back to the riff we would hit back to the Emaj7 ....Not exactly what the boys did, but effective

It's funny, on one of my old bootleg cassettes, 2/15/73, from Madison, WI, after the Dark Star>Eyes my cassettte label calls that jam "Milkin' The Doses". I've always still called it that with the bands I've played with.

Same thing goes for 8/1/73 from Roosevelt Stadium. On that one it's called "The Seven".

I inherited all these cassettes in the late 70's from my uncle who was a head. They are all on Sony and Craig 60 and 90 minute tapes.

 #51589  by jeffm725
 Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:48 pm
Tennessee Jedi wrote:thanks Jeff
looks great !
I'm checking out DP'S # 19 (10/19/73) Eyes now ...

ok mr jedi :-) ...

I just put that dp 19 on to compare it to what I wrote out.

They actually pretty much follow what I wrote out but the are VERY loose on this version and they really stretched out the bars in a couple cases. Also they were not "together" on the changes. Sometimes Phil would hit the change first, sometimes jerry, not very locked up at all.

It starts innocently enough with the first g#min at 7:33 which goes for 8 bars and resolves to the emaj7 (7:50) for 8 bars,
then about 8:10 ish (they are loose) they hit the G#min again for 8 bars....resolve to the emaj7 (8:26)

they lay on that to about 8:50 where they drift to the Ebmin instead of hitting it hard....they drift on this until...9:21 Phil and bobby hit the Eb Dim7 tonality, but Jerry doesnt...Jerry picks up on the Diminished about 9:27......this is where it is weird...they hang on this diminished a lot longer than most fact they sloppily resolve to the Emaj7 in "shifts" first Bill and Bobby resolve at 9:52..Jerry and Phil Not until 9:55!! (they have done it MUCH tighter)

At 10:14 Jerry is back to the Ebmin where they kind of ease in to the riff a whole minute later (Phil first) at 11:10, first Dmin at 11:24

by the way Bobby is playing some real intense stuff during the Dminor parts after the riff (he is also playing the riff slightly different from what I wrote out on this version). He is just so damn tasty in 73-74. He has got the tone, taste, and touch.

 #51590  by Tennessee Jedi
 Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:00 pm
Do you think this is the beginnings of Jerry's diminished scale work like Slipknot ?
Not this show in particular but this era ?
Pete.B was hearing it ( ears of a rabbit ) on a 72 show ....
Also they were not "together" on the changes.
If the Dead cant do it - how can I ?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I think its about picking and sticking with a arrangement maybe.
For tightness in a band setting.
Thanks for the input !
I'm going home to drink and play now.
Peace !

 #51592  by Pete B.
 Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:27 pm
I gave the Englisgton Eyes another shot today.
For better or worse (not sure yet).

It should come here when it completes YT processing:

 #51596  by ronster
 Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:32 pm
No doube for the better. Very cool. I always loved messing around with that chord jam and thanks to you I'll enjoy it that much more.
 #51605  by trking8
 Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:18 pm
pete, damn, you got the vid out there really quick! and an excellent job of piecing it together up the neck.

hey, I extracted and broke down the Etown solos and slowed them down. there are four files; the third one is long - - might have to split it.

is there any good place to post these if you guys want access? or pm me and I'll email them to you.

enough stuff to work on here for awhile...:hd:

happy hunting,


p.s. thanks again to jeff for the file

 #51611  by Emoto
 Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:55 am
Pete B. wrote:I gave the Englisgton Eyes another shot today.
For better or worse (not sure yet).

It should come here when it completes YT processing:
Really nice job, Pete! Fun stuff.

 #51615  by George
 Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:11 am
Pete -
Very nice work on the chordal jamming. that segment you put together is really useful for not only "Eyes" but applying the same concept to most any song or jam. Learning CAGED thru and thru is something i've been working on, but have been a bit lazy about committing the time and energy to fully digesting it. your video just brought into sharp relief the benefits of a strong working knowledge of caged. Thanks and great work!
Terry -
I'd very much like to take a gander at the fruits of your "Eyes" labor. Could you please post or email me.
Thanks again to you both!

 #51617  by Pete B.
 Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:44 am
Thanks, Guys.
As I have said before, i wouldn't be surprised to find out that Bobby and Jerry invented the CAGED Method themselves.

It is a great way to break down GD songs, and give yourself plenty of Ammo to get around the neck with both Chord forms and Scale forms.

It also functions as a kind of slide-rule, making it easy to apply things you already know, to things you are just learning.
Pete B.

Here are the two sites that really got me going on the CAGED thing...
(follow thru each page to get all the chord forms, then see "putting it all together" at the end).
This guy has an incredible amount of instructional material. I would reccomend going directly to the Modes Workshop and Introduction To Modes. He has a section on CAGED at:,
Last edited by Pete B. on Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

 #51618  by jeffm725
 Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:04 am
wow Pete, wonderful job....I have a slighly different take on a few parts, but you really nailed the esscence of what I was trying to convey with the different grips in the other post.

Everyone, you cannot go wrong internalizing this video and stuff that pete is so graciously showing us.

There is a reason I have been using this as a warmup excercise for 23 years, it is a study on chord forms, partial voicings, movement within chords and most underrated and unappreciated of all,,a killer rhythmically swinging but precise right hand (or left in Tom and Vics case :smile:

Well you have pretty much voided any reason of me posting this to video myself.
I will post something else, and I think I have a good idea based on what people have been asking about at recent gigs.

 #51619  by Pete B.
 Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:14 am
Jeff, There is definitely room for a Part 2 and/or Alternate Voicings for the chord jam.
I'd love to see your take on it.
I worked thru it more as a method of analysis for ways-to-play in this style, rather than a note-for-note copy-exactly, which I would love to see if anyone has actually figured it out!

 #51627  by Pete B.
 Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:49 pm
Pete B. wrote:Hey Team,
I need the little Jerry lick that is at approx 9:05-9:08 of the DP15 Eyes (Englishtown).
This is the A-chord moment of the EMaj7>Bm>A jam, where he does a quick slide up to the first note of a fast descending run over the A-chord.
pete b.
Hey Now, Thanks to Terry's 1/2-speed file of the 2nd solo, I now believe this little nugg-lette is:


I notice that on my other computer this tab has a wrap-around error. This can be fixed by right clicking, select properties, copy that URL and paste it into your browser. This will give you a full screen view. pb
Last edited by Pete B. on Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

 #51629  by trking8
 Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:49 pm
alright, boychicks - - let the games begin! great post, pete.

I've learned more of "eyes" in the last 24 hours than I have in years.

very grateful,


 #51642  by jeffm725
 Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:59 am
Pete B. wrote:
This guy has an incredible amount of instructional material. I would reccomend going directly to the Modes Workshop and Introduction To Modes. He has a section on CAGED at:,

That is Paul Murins site. Paul is the guitarist from Phix which is to Phish tributes what Dark Star Orchestra is to the Dead. In fact may I be so bold to say that in my opinion, Phix is better at what they do than DSO is, but that is a fine distinction and not a knock on DSO at all, more of a statement to illustrate just how effective Phix is at doing what they do.
Actually I should say "was" in Phix's case because they have stopped active touring and just do festivals on a limited basis now.
Whether or not Phish is your cup of tea, some of their music is incredibly challenging and tecnically precise. You have to have supreme chops and musical understanding to pull a ton of that stuff off.

Paul is an unbelievable talent on guitar and a fantastic teacher.
For anyone who has a hard time understanding modes and/or the CAGED system, and how they relate together I would highly reccomend the HCG site, He lays it out in a very understandable, intuitive way.

(/Paul kneepads off) :-)