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A place to talk about the music of the Grateful Dead 

 #43429  by tigerstrat
 Thu May 08, 2008 1:20 pm
I find it much easier to count in an odd time like 7 than to remember "now 3, now 4, now 3, now 4..." that would mess me up.

 #43430  by pappypgh
 Thu May 08, 2008 1:22 pm
tigerstrat wrote:I find it much easier to count in an odd time like 7 than to remember "now 3, now 4, now 3, now 4..." that would mess me up.
Problem with that is, TS, that the accents are different during the "main riff" than in the rest of the song. So, you can count 7, but you need to either accent the 4 or 5 respectively, right? You simply cannot play the "main riff" or its beat throughout the entire song - it doesn't work.

 #43487  by Rev_Roach
 Thu May 08, 2008 9:47 pm
im with ts, regardless of wherever the accents may be, i would always prefer to avoid mixed meter. an odd but constant meter is less work, imo, than alternating the length of each bar.

 #43502  by Billbbill
 Fri May 09, 2008 3:43 am
Tennessee Jedi wrote:How do you like the bridge part DeadGuise ?
I've seen that tab before and couldn't get it to sound right....
I have a real generic thing I do that isnt that great.
That part is killing me.
Any suggestions ?
:cool:
I've taken the liberty of tossin in my 2 cent. This is somewhat more akin to later versions I suppose. Early versions ended each phrase a bit differently.

My take on the bridge notes, although I don't think I've really made a study of this. Ear all the way.



(/) Slide Up (\) Slide Down (h) Hammer On (p) Pull Off (b) Bend (r) Release (v) Vibrato

--F------A-------Bm----Dm

E|---------------------10--------------------
B|-------------------7----10p8----10-8p6-----
G|-------------2---7-----------10--------7---
D|-----------2---9---------------------------
A|---0-3-0-4---------------------------------
E|-1-----------------------------------------

---Am----Cm-------------Gm----Bbm

E|-------8---------------------6-
B|-----5---8p6---8-6p4-------3---
G|---5---------8-------5---3-----
D|-7---------------------5-------
A|-------------------------------
E|-------------------------------


-----------------Fm-Fm#5------Fm6

E|-------------------------------------
B|-6p4---6-4p2-------1---2---2---3---3-
G|-----6-------3---1---1---1---1---1---
D|---------------3---------------------
A|-------------------------------------
E|-------------------------------------
http://www.guitartabcreator.com

 #43524  by Pete B.
 Fri May 09, 2008 8:40 am
Just curious if anyone else has been working out with a Metronome or Drum-machine set to 7/4?

I have read alot of interesting ways to count 7/4 in this thread, but don't lose sight of the goal... to never have to think about how to count 7/4 ever again, and, making 7/4 completely second nature (both individually and collectively if you are playing with a band), at which point Estimated Prophet becomes an easy song to play (it's in one time sig from beginning to end).
Now singing it fluently while playing it, uhhh... that'd be my next goal! :?

Some interesting stuff on time sigs:

http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/rhythm.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mu ... signatures

 #50550  by JohnnyB
 Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:34 am
A Cool trick I have always used with Estimated is to actually use 8th beats (like the countdown used to start the song) when I'm counting it in my head. People are correct here that it is in 7/4 technically but it can be thought of more comfortably (to me at least) as 14/8 . If you think of Jerry's whole guitar main melody riff for this song, you can break it up into 2 sections: 1st is 8/8, followed by 6/8 . If confused, go ahead and listen to the melody riff..These 2 sections of the melody line are separated by a 2 beat pause (again if youre counting 8th beats, not quarters).

Now, once you get into the lyrics, it then takes on more of a straight 7/8, 7/8 ( or still 14/8)feel based on the underlying riffs that are being played by the band. Counting in quarters for this song is very awkward to me and I would think many others.... Hope this helps for some

JB

 #50591  by tigerstrat
 Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:30 pm
I've almost always heard Bob count this off with just a "5, 6, 7,"; the 1-4 is unnecessary. Likewise with Playin: its usually "7, 8, 9, 10", w/o the 1-6.

 #50609  by pappypgh
 Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:04 pm
I remember this thread! TS - one more thing I would like to add....

You say to only count 7 (which, if it works for you - by all means - DO IT!). I say count 4, then 3 or 3, then 4 depending on which part of the song you're playing.

For me, counting 7 in THIS song feels different than counting 7 in Lazy Lightning. I can count 7 in that song, but not Estimated. It's easier for me to break it up while singing / playing, for whatever reason.

Again, no rights or wrongs - as basically, we're BOTH counting 7. BUT, if one counts to 7 and has a hard time finding out where to put the accents, I think it's a LOT easier to think 4, then 3 during the "Jerry riff", and 3, then 4 during the rest of the song.

:cool:

 #50624  by strumminsix
 Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:28 pm
pappypgh wrote:I remember this thread! TS - one more thing I would like to add....

You say to only count 7 (which, if it works for you - by all means - DO IT!). I say count 4, then 3 or 3, then 4 depending on which part of the song you're playing.

For me, counting 7 in THIS song feels different than counting 7 in Lazy Lightning. I can count 7 in that song, but not Estimated. It's easier for me to break it up while singing / playing, for whatever reason.

Again, no rights or wrongs - as basically, we're BOTH counting 7. BUT, if one counts to 7 and has a hard time finding out where to put the accents, I think it's a LOT easier to think 4, then 3 during the "Jerry riff", and 3, then 4 during the rest of the song.

:cool:
Wow totally agree. :lol:

 #50631  by tigerstrat
 Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:43 am
JohnnyB wrote:A Cool trick I have always used with Estimated is to actually use 8th beats (like the countdown used to start the song) when I'm counting it in my head. People are correct here that it is in 7/4 technically but it can be thought of more comfortably (to me at least) as 14/8 . If you think of Jerry's whole guitar main melody riff for this song, you can break it up into 2 sections: 1st is 8/8, followed by 6/8 . If confused, go ahead and listen to the melody riff..These 2 sections of the melody line are separated by a 2 beat pause (again if youre counting 8th beats, not quarters).

Now, once you get into the lyrics, it then takes on more of a straight 7/8, 7/8 ( or still 14/8)feel based on the underlying riffs that are being played by the band. Counting in quarters for this song is very awkward to me and I would think many others.... Hope this helps for some

JB
agree 100% in regards to 8th note feel. hey, nice first post, JB. welcome.

 #50637  by JohnnyB
 Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:53 am
Why thank you very much! I hope it helps somebody out there. I know there are a lot of good musicians out there who have a little trouble with time signature changes...

 #50641  by tigerstrat
 Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:43 am
pappypgh wrote:I remember this thread! TS - one more thing I would like to add....

You say to only count 7 (which, if it works for you - by all means - DO IT!). I say count 4, then 3 or 3, then 4 depending on which part of the song you're playing.

For me, counting 7 in THIS song feels different than counting 7 in Lazy Lightning. I can count 7 in that song, but not Estimated. It's easier for me to break it up while singing / playing, for whatever reason.

Again, no rights or wrongs - as basically, we're BOTH counting 7. BUT, if one counts to 7 and has a hard time finding out where to put the accents, I think it's a LOT easier to think 4, then 3 during the "Jerry riff", and 3, then 4 during the rest of the song.

:cool:
I think the big difference here (and I've only said what works for me) might be you counting in quarter note time, and me (as JB described although I don't do the 8+6 thing in my head) counting in 1/8 note time.

Maybe I DO do an unconscious 3+4 division in that the actual count (of 8) goes through my head while playing is just ONE(...)FIVE-SIX(...) . But I never count 8-14, I cycle it back to 1-7 and alternate "Up" and Down" measures.

 #50642  by amyjared
 Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:58 am
Another way, and this works best for me, is to just leave this song out of my repertoire :lol: !

 #50643  by Pete B.
 Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:14 am
I've found playing it a few thousand times smooths it over quite well.
I've made it my goal over the last few months to become a fluent 7/4 time-sig player.
Estimated, Lazy Lightnin', the 7/4 section on Uncle Johns Band (Dm>G>C>Dm), all need to be as fluent as any other song.
For Estimated, I now find it easiest to just chuck out the tempo a few times (in 1/4 beats) on the guitar (that muted tempo chuck thing that Jerry does to set up so many song intro/tempo's), then just signal the up-beat with the word "And", landing on the Jerry lick down-beat.
From there on it's all the drummers bain.
I play with three different drummers on a fairly regular basis, and have been drilling them all on 7/4.
You thought it was hard for us?!!!
:x
Last edited by Pete B. on Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

 #50644  by CaptainTrips
 Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:22 am
I just play it by feel.

My drummer is always on me about counting while I play though. And I know I should.