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 #22129  by d-v-s
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:38 am
I read this in another thread about chord variations(ref: http://community.rukind.org/viewtopic.php?t=1541 )
C Major scale harmonized in chords

I II III IV V VI VII
C maj, D min, E min, F maj, G 7, Am, Bdim
I think this is pretty much standard, as I've seen this before, though perhaps with different notation (lowercase i for the minors, like this: I ii iii IV V vi vii*).

So the chords are basically made up of the 1,3, and 5 notes, like so:

Cmaj = C E G
Dmin = D F A
Emin = E G B, etc.

OK, I understand that the ii, iii, and vi are minor because the 1-3-5 is made up of the root, a minor third (3 semitones from the root), and a perfect fifth (7 semitones).

I understand why the IV and V are major because their 1-3-5 are the root, the major third, and the perfect fifth.

The one I don't get is the vii. This should be made up of B D F, in the key of C. In this case it's referred to as Bdim.

When I looked up Bdim in a chord book I found this

E|--x--
B|--3--
G|--1--
D|--3--
A|--2--
E|--x--

This chord has is made up of B, F, G#, and D.

The G# is not part of the C scale and harmonically, doesn't seem to fit. I tried to search for chords with just the B, F, and D on chordbook.com and it couldn't identify it. I should also note that trying to make a chord with the B F and D in anything besides the open position is a bit of a bitch.

Is the diminshed chord the correct chord for the vii?

 #22131  by wisedyes
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:39 am
No, the correct chord for the vii is actually a minor 7b5 chord, which is also known as a half diminished. So, in the case of C Major, it would be Bm7b5, or B-D-F-A.

 #22133  by Rev_Roach
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:28 am
Bdim triad is indeed B D F as you said

when you extend to the 7th there are two different ones, referred to as half (Bm7b5) and fully (Bo7, though its usually written with a raised circle like a degree sign) diminished
Code: Select all
Bm7b5 - B D F A          1 b3 b5 b7
Bo7   - B D F Ab/G#      1 b3 b5 bb7
As wised explained the half diminished is the vii chord. im pretty sure fully diminished is always chromatic and you'll generally just see it in jazz[/code]
Last edited by Rev_Roach on Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

 #22137  by strumminsix
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:34 am
This is how I learned basic theory:
Code: Select all
major:  	R - 3 - 5
minor: 	        R - b3 - 5
augmented: 	R - 3 - #5
diminished: 	R - b3 - b5
So with your example of C the vii is B.
Bmaj = B - D# - F#
Bdim = B - D - F

Keep in mind a diminished is not always a dim7.
dim7: R - b3 - b5 - bb7

From what I picked up along the way (may not be 100%):
If the I is a 7, use a half-dim7 by default
If the I is a maj, use regular dim triad


Here is a beauty of an example:
http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/chord-scale.html

Personally, I absolutely love this site. Here is the main page:
http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/


[/quote]

 #22140  by d-v-s
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:41 am
thanks for the info guys. I must admit that I like the sound of the fully diminished, as rev_roach called it, but it still didn't sound "right" when harmonizing with the C-chord because of that rogue A.

Strummin' that link you sent was useful. It confirmed what I was thinking and also gave me a easier way to play that Bdim. Trying to put that BDF triad together on more than 3 strings was proving to be a pain in the ass.

Rev, in your reply you wrote: when you extend to the 7th there are two different ones. Why would you extend to the 7th?

For all the other chords you just use the 1-3-5. Why extend to the 7th for the vii?

 #22141  by Rev_Roach
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:12 am
d-v-s wrote:For all the other chords you just use the 1-3-5. Why extend to the 7th for the vii?

Nothing special about the vii chord, any chord can a seventh. I'm sure the website strummin sent gives a good explanation, but I'll just list those seventh chords diatonic to C for you. In addition to those two diminished 7ths, you have major, minor, and dominant.
Code: Select all
Cmaj7 (I7)     - C E G B   1 3 5 7
Dmin7 (ii7)    - D F A C   1 b3 5 b7
Emin7 (iii7)   - E G B F
Fmaj7 (IV7)    - F A C E
G7    (V7)     - G D B F   1 3 5 b7 (dominant)
Amin7 (vi7)    - A C E G
Bmin7b5 (vii7) - B D F A   1 b3 b5 b7
The one you will see most frequently is the V7, aka dominant 7th, which often leads to the tonic chord. Ex. G7-C.

Chords can also be extended to 9th, 11th, and 13th, though certainly less often.

 #22142  by shakedown_04092
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:33 am
Mmmmm mmmm mmmmmmm - tasty information! Thanks! I was just working on diminished, half-diminished, and diminished 7ths! :cool:
 #22143  by shakedown_04092
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:44 am
d-v-s wrote:I should also note that trying to make a chord with the B F and D in anything besides the open position is a bit of a bitch.
Hey Doug - these are the ways I play diminished chords (not sure if this helps or not):


Code: Select all
Bdim7 (or Bm7b5)
E|--x-- 
B|--3-- 
G|--1-- 
D|--3-- 
A|--2-- 
E|--x-- 


B half-dim
E|--x-- 
B|--3-- 
G|--2-- 
D|--3-- 
A|--2-- 
E|--x-- 


B dim
E|--x-- 
B|--3-- 
G|--4-- 
D|--3-- 
A|--2-- 
E|--x-- 

or

E|--x-- 
B|--x-- 
G|--7-- 
D|--9-- 
A|--8-- 
E|--7-- 

 #22144  by d-v-s
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:45 am
rev, again, thanks for the explaination. I just finished reading the article on 7th chords on the web-site strummin' referred to.

To continue down this road a bit more, if I may...

If I'm talking about the vii of Cmaj then I'd probably just have the 3 notes of B D F (Bdim). If we're talking about the vii of CMaj7, then I'd end up with the 4 notes of B D F A (Bmin7b5).

Does that sound right?

Would you only extend the vii out to the 7th if your root was a 7th?

Note - i realize that anythings possible in music, and that you can 7th any chord if you feel like it, but I'm talking on a strictly theoretical basis here.
 #22152  by astroman99
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:30 am
I am a newbie , and trying to understand some theory, I've noticed a few poeople hace referred to A as the flatted 7th in a B chord, isn't it just the 7th? THANKS
Rev_Roach wrote:
d-v-s wrote:For all the other chords you just use the 1-3-5. Why extend to the 7th for the vii?

Nothing special about the vii chord, any chord can a seventh. I'm sure the website strummin sent gives a good explanation, but I'll just list those seventh chords diatonic to C for you. In addition to those two diminished 7ths, you have major, minor, and dominant.
Code: Select all
Cmaj7 (I7)     - C E G B   1 3 5 7
Dmin7 (ii7)    - D F A C   1 b3 5 b7
Emin7 (iii7)   - E G B F
Fmaj7 (IV7)    - F A C E
G7    (V7)     - G D B F   1 3 5 b7 (dominant)
Amin7 (vi7)    - A C E G
Bmin7b5 (vii7) - B D F A   1 b3 b5 b7
The one you will see most frequently is the V7, aka dominant 7th, which often leads to the tonic chord. Ex. G7-C.

Chords can also be extended to 9th, 11th, and 13th, though certainly less often.

 #22164  by Rev_Roach
 Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:47 pm
d-v-s wrote: If I'm talking about the vii of Cmaj then I'd probably just have the 3 notes of B D F (Bdim). If we're talking about the vii of CMaj7, then I'd end up with the 4 notes of B D F A (Bmin7b5).
There is no such thing as the key of Cmaj7, it would simply be the key of C major. When playing in C, the Bdim triad and B half diminished are just as valid and both totally diatonic (no chromatics) to the key. As far as when to use sevenths and when to remain with just a triad, be it diminished or any others, that is a larger issue. Generally speaking you will see few seventh chords (other than the dominant) outside of jazz. The V7-I cadance I described before is the most popular use of dominant 7th. Try strumming C-F-G7-C vs C-F-G-C and you'll see how using the seventh is a choice, not a requirement.


And Astro, the 7h of B is A#.

Here is the B major scale: B C# D# E F# G# A#
You can see A# is the seventh tone. Dominant 7th chords don't use that seventh tone of the major scale, thats why its called a flat 7.
 #22183  by d-v-s
 Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:31 am
shakedown_04092 wrote:Hey Doug - these are the ways I play diminished chords (not sure if this helps or not):
Code: Select all
B dim
E|--x-- 
B|--x-- 
G|--7-- 
D|--9-- 
A|--8-- 
E|--7-- 
Ben - just outta curiosity, when you play the diminished up on the 7th fret, have you found it better to barre it or use all 4 fingers to make the chord?
 #22184  by CaptainTrips
 Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:03 am
astroman99 wrote:I am a newbie , and trying to understand some theory, I've noticed a few poeople hace referred to A as the flatted 7th in a B chord, isn't it just the 7th? THANKS
no, you have the B major scale wrong

B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A# - B

B7 = 1, 3, 5, b7 = B, D#, F#, A
Bmaj7 = 1, 3, 5, 7 = B, D#, F#, A#

 #22188  by astroman99
 Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:41 am
Thanks for straightening that out for me...
 #22211  by shakedown_04092
 Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:03 pm
d-v-s wrote:
shakedown_04092 wrote:Hey Doug - these are the ways I play diminished chords (not sure if this helps or not):
Code: Select all
B dim
E|--x-- 
B|--x-- 
G|--7-- 
D|--9-- 
A|--8-- 
E|--7-- 
Ben - just outta curiosity, when you play the diminished up on the 7th fret, have you found it better to barre it or use all 4 fingers to make the chord?
Yes, I do barre it, but I try not to play it there unless I have to: 1.) I'll play if I have to, if it's convenient and that's where I am on the neck, and 2.) because it has such a thicker sound that I tend not to dig it - usually the bass can handle that part. I like the other one better.

EDIT: one thing this version is good for is if you're moving to the I (1) right after....it's a nice easy slide into it and sounds good.