[ebick]

dude, just move on. project this same situation onto some one you were trying to date. There would be no 2nd date, there shouldn't have been one in this case either.

it doesn't really work like that. This is kind of an open jam that although I started it and I am the organizer, I am not the sole voice. Although I know that the others in the group have similar feelings (at least as they have expressed them to me), the only way to "move on" as you say (I assume you mean to stop playing with him since you referred to no second date) would be to confront this person and tell him he is no longer welcome. The "confronting" of him is what this thread is all about.

[Pete B.]

Keep in mind, being "a Huge fan of the Dead" has nothing to do with being able to play Dead songs on guitar.
The guy may not be lying or even full of shit.
Probably 99% of people who ever saw the Dead don't even play an Instrument, but would say they are Huge Fans.

I'm not really sure where this is coming from......I certainly don't think that you need to be able to play Grateful Dead music on an instrument to be a fan. But I would think that huge fan would have heard the song Friend Of The Devil before. Additionally, it has been my experience that when I meet a true, fellow Deadhead, we talk about things Grateful Dead.....the conversation about the Dead stops (for him) immediately after "I'm a huge fan". And that's kind of what I have been saying.....I have tried to push it a little bit before and it's quite apparent he just has no knowledge. I've never put him on the spot, but I have given him ample opportunity to prove me wrong.

I presumed he just meant he didn't know the chords.
Sounds like you may be right.
Have you asked how many shows he's been to?

[tcsned]

Sounds to me like a guy who is trying to keep his gig and more or less fit in. If he's got personality issues he may have difficulty keeping a gig and why he's trying to hold onto something that isn't a good fit.

I'd do a cost benefit analysis or a SWOT analysis (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats) and figure out whether the guy is worth keeping around of needs to be cut loose. I'd give him some recordings, even if he says he has them and some time to practice on his own. If he picks it up great, if not it may be time to move on. If he's good, you find a way around personality issues. If he ain't good, he'd better be cool and fun to hang out with.

[strumminsix]

Sounds to me like a guy who is trying to keep his gig and more or less fit in. If he's got personality issues he may have difficulty keeping a gig and why he's trying to hold onto something that isn't a good fit.

I'd do a cost benefit analysis or a SWOT analysis (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats) and figure out whether the guy is worth keeping around of needs to be cut loose. I'd give him some recordings, even if he says he has them and some time to practice on his own. If he picks it up great, if not it may be time to move on. If he's good, you find a way around personality issues. If he ain't good, he'd better be cool and fun to hang out with.

Good call. Were my impressions as well.

Dude, I think you need to have a few drinks 1 on 1 with the guy and see what's up. He could be a talker and he "loves" every band. Clear the air. He may be just as uncomfortable as you!

[tcsned]

Open jams are a little more complicated. It's one thing to set the personnel for a band and another to exclude someone from an open jam. I don't know the dynamic with this guy and what he's done or said but being asked to go away is likely to hurt the person. I'd try working with him but there is a point where you say, "this ain't working out." You never know, you might be able to turn this guy around, make a friend, and have a rewarding experience.

[Billbbill]

Dude, I think you need to have a few drinks 1 on 1 with the guy and see what's up. He could be a talker and he "loves" every band. Clear the air. He may be just as uncomfortable as you!

I think Nick has it here. Might be a bit awkward but if he knew how you (and if need be, you tell him others as well) felt he'd at least have been 'put on notice' and from here it'd be easier to oust him from the group if it came to that. You and the rest of the group can only answer where that threshold is. And while it's a different dynamic with an open jam group than say a band you're trying to get together, you, as the guy who started it and organize it, have some significant say in how things move along. Delicate balance here though as you also don't want to come off like a narcisistic control freak to the rest of the group!
Been involved with this kinda thing with pick up ice hockey - sometimes you tell someone they need to move on - or YOU move on. If it rose to the level (and I don't see it here) you can disband the jam and reform it without him. That would seem overkill to me here but it's an option. Bottom line brother Ed is the point is to have fun - if that fun/hassle balance is tipping the wrong way for you take him aside for a few beers and try to talk it out. Easier to toss him after that if it's still bugging you and others.

[ebick]

Thanks to everyone for their input. I have consumed it all.

So here's what I have come to. There's another issue about his playing, which A) we have started to address with him, and B) is really more important. I will continue to focus on that vs this. However.....

As it turns out that he does appear to be a guy who "loves" every band (based on his Facebook posts), I made him a CD of Dead tunes. Other than FOTD, I am sure he doesn't know a single one of them, even though they are songs that a true fan would certainly know (Eyes, Bertha, Touch, Uncle John's, etc...). I will give him the CD and probably ask him if he knows any of the songs on it. If he chooses to lie and say yes, then I will push him further. Hopefully, he'll say no and thanks for the CD, and then find out if he really is a fan or not.

[paulinnc]

Does it really matter that much? Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Is it really worth pursuing that far?

[ebick]

Does it really matter that much? Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Is it really worth pursuing that far?

it's not a question of being right or wrong....it's a question of tolerating someone who just stands there and lies to your face.

[Pete B.]

I'll take another shot at it...
I could be wrong about this, but if I had to guess, this guy is just a certain personality type (the "Yes Man" type), and I'm guessing he has no idea he is doing anything to offend you/anyone, and certainly isn't doing it on purpose(I don't think he's consiously lying).
You might try just saying, please stop agreeing with everything I say.
I can't wait to hear what he says when you ask him about actually knowing songs.
I suspect some crafty back-peddaling rhetoric.
What is the issue with his playing?

[jackr]

it's not a question of being right or wrong....it's a question of tolerating someone who just stands there and lies to your face.

You can tolerate it if you choose to. So long as we keep "our side of the street" clean, his lying is his problem. You dont have to like it but you can choose to just chuckle to yourself and move on. Who knows, he may not even know he is lying! And if he does know, then he has other issues that are his not yours.

You said he was a good player. He may have some "character defects" but we all do. Tolerance of others is not always easy but is probably worth while because carrying a resentment against someone then makes it our problem.

All of that mumbo jumbo said, for me, I am all about having fun playing music. I dont play for money, although I have been paid to play. If playing music isnt fun for me i wont do it. We've kicked people out of my band who create too much tension among the other musicians.

[ebick]

What is the issue with his playing?

He's got a guitar has an amazing natural volume, and on top of that he uses a heavy pick and really bangs on the strings.....I guess what I am saying is that he plays very loud.....so much so that you can't really hear other people. We discussed that with him the last time, so he's aware of that issue and it really is the bigger issue.

I play with friends in another town and we have had at times 8 guitars in the room.....and you can hear every one of them.....because they all realize that it's not a competition, they want to hear the other players, and they are playing with, not at the other players.

At the end of the day, we all kind of believe that this issue is just another symptom of the initial and main issue I brought up here. He is definitely a guy who claims to "love" everything, and seems to do these things to prove he belongs and to fit in. All this stuff together has grown to create a less than good vibe, and I hope that we can correct it, and make him feel that he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone to fit in.

Thanks again everyone.

[Pete B.]

Yeah I coulda guessed that was the issue. Too loud all the time.
Have him put his amp in front of him tilted back and pointed up at him (instead of on the ground directly behind him). It would probably help if everybody did that. I call it the "Nobody should hear me louder than I hear me" method.
Give him the jam-group speech... "For our jam to work for everybody, it needs to be a Musical "Conversation"... It's not a conversation if one person is "talking" louder than everyone else non-stop from beginning to end of every song. ...You don't actually have to stop playing, just turn your volume knob all the way down when it's not your turn".

[jester536]

I'm getting the sense it's an acoustic thing...so it's not a volume knob or amp problem...more of a listening/finesse problem. You're a good man for trying to make it work. Sounds like you've got a good thing going with one guy throwing a monkey wrench into the whole thing (be it left-handed or not). Good luck.

[Pete B.]

The "Musical Conversation" thing applies to acoustic jams, too.
It's not a "conversation" if one person is talking all the time.