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 #107409  by claytushaywood
 Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:41 pm
I recently acquired a danelectro baritone and absolutely love it. I also play a good deal of lap steel. I was thinking it might be a good idea to get a 15" speaker as when i'm not playing leads with the bass knob all the way down I really dig a good amount of low end. I was looking at the eminence commonwealth and the response between teh 12 and 15 isnt all that different, but reading reviews on speakers it kinda seems like guitar players talk about low end when referencing 10" speakers and high end when referencing 15" speakers... hah! anybody else notice that or know anything about that?

so, I'm not going pure 80's jerry with a mac and all that, but do you guys think getting a 15 would ruin any hopes for decent jerry style low end spank? And would a 15" be that much better than a 12 for a baritone?

==on a different sort of topic- people are always saying you really got push the jbl's to really get that extra edge- so in effect, wouldnt using a single speaker be better than using two speakers? especially when talking about the higher wattage E series, commonwealth or EV 12L?

Thanks!
 #107415  by gr8fullfred
 Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:45 pm
Actually, 15" speakers sound really good for guitar, and especially for Pedal Steel Guitar.
See if you can find a fender Steel King with a 15" speaker. There are a very few Mesa Boogies with a 15" speaker and I bet these would be killer. There are also a few fender twins out there with 15" speakers.
Any of these would probably sound pretty killer. And remember Jerry sounded great no matter what guitar, effects, speakers, amps etc.
 #107443  by SarnoMusicSolutions
 Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:10 am
What's real interesting about speaker size is that it doesn't necessarily mean that a bigger speaker is bassier. In fact, often the opposite is true. If you take a Princeton with a 10" speaker and change it to a 12" (aka: mesa boogie combo), you actually get less bass. It has everything to do with the speaker and the relative volume of the cabinet. If you put a 15" speaker in a cab designed for a 12", you get less bass. A 15" in an appropriately tuned/sized cab WILL give more bass than a 12" in an appropriately tuned/sized cab.

But all that aside...

Yes, actually, the 15" JBL's (D130, K130, E130) will do a very good Jerry. The key is that both the 12" and 15" use the identical "motor" or magnet/voice-coil structure. A lot of the voice and character lives right there. The cone will sound different, but not radically different. The 12" has a bit more upper midrange force where the 15" is a bit more open and scooped, but they're both definitely in the ballpark when it comes to that treble-forward Jerry tone. I've actually been using an original D130 lately along with a Jerry rig, and it's surprisingly close and doable.

Also, one classic other example of a 15" JBL in action is Stevie Ray Vaughan's "Lenny". Chuck Berry has lived by them for years as well.


Brad
 #107445  by SarnoMusicSolutions
 Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:27 am
Also, the other JBL that gets discussed around here is the 10" D110, K110, E110. That speaker actually has a very different motor and in turn it has a different treble voicing and frequency response. The 15" and 12" JBL's use the same 4" voice coil motor. The 10" JBL's as well as the amazing and super secret JBL D123 use the smaller 3" voice coil. Personally, I love the sweetness and hi-fi tone of these 3" versions, but I find that they have such extended highs that it's almost like there's a tweeter involved. I guess the lower mass of the smaller voice coil and smaller dusctcap allows for it to deliver more highs with greater ease. But still a fantastic sounding speaker that does deliver a nice Jerry tone, just not as accurately as the 12" or 15" with that classic 4" voice coil.

By the way, the JBL D123, while being one of the most amazing speakers in the world, is only rated for about 30 watts or so. So putting it in anything louder than a Deluxe Reverb would be risky. If you like the body and character of a 12" but also like that sweeter, crisper 3" JBL voice coil, the D123 is a very interesting speaker. Not all that rare either, just rare as a guitar speaker. Harvey Gerst, the guy at JBL who helped develop many of these JBL's that we revere, says that the D123 is his favorite guitar speaker, especially for bluesy tones. In the midrange/mid-treble it's like a mellower, darker D110 but with the same clear and crisp top end. Just don't abuse it!! You may never be able to recone it properly.

Brad
 #107449  by Pete B.
 Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:32 am
In my expierience 15" speakers are capable of both more highs and more lows than 12's.
I use an original JBL D130 pretty regularly, and that speaker works great for Jerry tone, but I don't think it will handle the low end a Pedal Steel will throw at it at gig volumes (i don't want to blow the speaker).
Being a longtime Pedal Steel player I have a bunch of various 15's (Weber Cali and Michigan, EV15L, Peavey Black Widows, and several others I've picked up here and there over the years).
I gig with them on Pedal Steel with alot of low end, and also feel like I can get a Jerry tone out of any of them (with that said, I'm a strong "it's all in the hands" believer).
Pete B.
 #107469  by claytushaywood
 Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:50 pm
SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:What's real interesting about speaker size is that it doesn't necessarily mean that a bigger speaker is bassier. In fact, often the opposite is true. If you take a Princeton with a 10" speaker and change it to a 12" (aka: mesa boogie combo), you actually get less bass. It has everything to do with the speaker and the relative volume of the cabinet. If you put a 15" speaker in a cab designed for a 12", you get less bass. A 15" in an appropriately tuned/sized cab WILL give more bass than a 12" in an appropriately tuned/sized cab.
Yeh that's what I was asking about in my post. it seems like when people talk about 10" speakers a lot they mention the big bass response of them.

So how exactly do you guys tune your cab? I know they have a project for a tuned cab over at ax84, but I havent had time to research how in fact you go about designing something like that. and the ax84 cab is for celestion type speakers i believe. You have a link for info? definitely something i'd be interested in learning about.
 #107470  by claytushaywood
 Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:00 pm
I have actually still been looking into a JBL alternative as I am still not comfortable buying a JBL on ebay. Many people have told me to get a real JBL on this forum before, and I would like to. I've asked this before but is there anything in particular I should look for in order to increase the probability of getting a quality used speaker? are any recones good? anything i could look in the pictures of the used speaker?
 #107507  by claytushaywood
 Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:45 am
SarnoMusicSolutions wrote: By the way, the JBL D123, while being one of the most amazing speakers in the world, is only rated for about 30 watts or so. So putting it in anything louder than a Deluxe Reverb would be risky. If you like the body and character of a 12" but also like that sweeter, crisper 3" JBL voice coil, the D123 is a very interesting speaker. Not all that rare either, just rare as a guitar speaker. Harvey Gerst, the guy at JBL who helped develop many of these JBL's that we revere, says that the D123 is his favorite guitar speaker, especially for bluesy tones. In the midrange/mid-treble it's like a mellower, darker D110 but with the same clear and crisp top end. Just don't abuse it!! You may never be able to recone it properly.

Brad
I've been trying to find a jbl site for guitarists or maybe a jbl review site. I appreciate you telling me about the d123, as i've only been able to search the various 110, 120, and 130's. are there any other jbl's that are good for guitar use? the d,k, and e's are goin up on ebay. maybe the ones that came in the older twin reverb reissues like from the 90's are those any good? or other lesser known jbls good for guitar?
 #107508  by jeffm725
 Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:00 pm
claytushaywood wrote:
I've been trying to find a jbl site for guitarists or maybe a jbl review site. I appreciate you telling me about the d123, as i've only been able to search the various 110, 120, and 130's. are there any other jbl's that are good for guitar use? the d,k, and e's are goin up on ebay. maybe the ones that came in the older twin reverb reissues like from the 90's are those any good? or other lesser known jbls good for guitar?
here ya go:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/
 #114113  by Smolder
 Fri May 18, 2012 6:33 pm
I picked up a pair of D123's with original cone (stamped 123 504) this week. These are very cool speakers. Light weight and lower wattage, they won't take the wattage of the D120's but they have a very similar sweetness to them. They seem to have the same crispness. The slightly more rigid ribbed cone may be part of that.

They are Alnico, but with a much smaller magnet they aren't going to offer quite the same bottom end. They also break up quicker than the E's, which might be very helpful in getting that same push that Jerry was getting, but at a much lower volume. I think a pair would be great with 35-40 watts of fender... or an mc-50... and a single would be perfect for a princeton or deluxe. Thanks for the info brad.

Oh... also, check the finished auctions on ebay, I think you'll find them affordable... much more so than some of the BIN prices would indicate. IN fact I may have to pick up a second pair to stash away for down the road.
SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:Also, the other JBL that gets discussed around here is the 10" D110, K110, E110. That speaker actually has a very different motor and in turn it has a different treble voicing and frequency response. The 15" and 12" JBL's use the same 4" voice coil motor. The 10" JBL's as well as the amazing and super secret JBL D123 use the smaller 3" voice coil. Personally, I love the sweetness and hi-fi tone of these 3" versions, but I find that they have such extended highs that it's almost like there's a tweeter involved. I guess the lower mass of the smaller voice coil and smaller dusctcap allows for it to deliver more highs with greater ease. But still a fantastic sounding speaker that does deliver a nice Jerry tone, just not as accurately as the 12" or 15" with that classic 4" voice coil.

By the way, the JBL D123, while being one of the most amazing speakers in the world, is only rated for about 30 watts or so. So putting it in anything louder than a Deluxe Reverb would be risky. If you like the body and character of a 12" but also like that sweeter, crisper 3" JBL voice coil, the D123 is a very interesting speaker. Not all that rare either, just rare as a guitar speaker. Harvey Gerst, the guy at JBL who helped develop many of these JBL's that we revere, says that the D123 is his favorite guitar speaker, especially for bluesy tones. In the midrange/mid-treble it's like a mellower, darker D110 but with the same clear and crisp top end. Just don't abuse it!! You may never be able to recone it properly.

Brad
 #114125  by SarnoMusicSolutions
 Sat May 19, 2012 7:25 am
back on topic,

I've been using a JBL D130 15" speaker lately in an open back cab. Did a gig recently using a '68 Bandmaster Reverb head with all the Jerry pre mods in it into this D130. The D130 (or K130 or E130) has the exact same 4" voice coil and magnet structure as the 12" speakers we use. When you dial in a Jerry tone with all treble and no bass, the D130 is remarkably similar to the 12" versions. If you fatten it up a bit, it's really a great speaker. As I understand it, SRV used a D130 or K130 when he recorded or performed "Lenny". So, I'd say it's worth a shot if you want to get good Jerry and other tones, try the JBL 130 15" speaker... Should be killer for baritone guitar.

B