Grateful Dead Music Forum

A place to talk about the music of the Grateful Dead 

 #136625  by Jon S.
 Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:04 am
Two responses. One, this is far from the first time that you've remembered and posted links to key former threads relevant to our new topic at hand. Your memory is amazing and thanks again for doing this! (And based on it, I thinking more that I should at try least slightly raise my PUPs now per waldo's advice if only to experience the difference now with my new Proton.) Second is I see that I, myself, started that old thread! I'm scared what this says about my own memory! :oops: :P

Also, I thought it might be helpful for me to clarify now that the reason I precede my digital "version" of the 'tron on my M13 with a compressor is not to boost the signal's amplitude to more easily trigger the envelope but to level off the top of the amplitude so as to not routinely trigger the peak higher frequency part of the "auto-wah" sound, i.e., to tame, not boost, my guitar's input signal.
 #136648  by Jon S.
 Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:48 am
Spencer is quick!
Spencer Doren
12:26 PM (1 hour ago)
to me

That will work fine, although I think the Proton sounds best on 9v. Try both and see which you like more.
 #136660  by waldo041
 Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:55 pm
What are you hoping to accomplish by raising the input voltage?

What does your middle pickup height neckside coil measure for both the low & high E strings?

 #136662  by Jon S.
 Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:13 pm
I'm not trying to accomplish anything in particular except experiment to see how it sounds at 18V. The 18 V adaptor is just $15 or so. As long as the pedal can take 9 or 18V, why not try it at 18 to experience that? I might prefer what I hear or not. And I have other pedals that also can run on 9 or 18V, like my Fat Boost. It could be fun to experiment with those, too.

I'm happy to measure the middle PUP heights but please remind me, as there's been confusion over this here in past: fret the guitar first at the 12th or (in my case) 22nd fret or no? In any event, playing with the PUP height's an even simpler experiment than with the pedal as it's free and easy. You do feel similarly, right?

Thanks again.
 #136668  by waldo041
 Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:11 pm
No fretting for the measurement.

 #136670  by Jon S.
 Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:44 am
Thanks for your continuing patience, waldo (seriously).

For the string distance from the middle PUP measurements on my guitar, I’m getting 13/64” on the bass side and 9/64” on the treble side. This is after I made the adjustments described below slightly over 2 years ago.
Jon S. wrote:Both Dozin's and Wald's sites say the neck and middle PUP are 10/64" from the strings, and the bridge PUP 14/64" away. I finally got around to comparing these measurement to my own J-caster's and I ended up having to raise the PUPs on mine considerably to get there. And now the PUPs look closer to my strings than I almost ever place my PUPs. Are these measurements for sure correct?
And BTW, regarding the distance from the nut to the middle of the middle PUP, I'm pretty far off at 21 7/8". This is something I do plan to have a luthier correct at some point, probably in the spring once I've received my Wolf 2.1 and can be without my current Jerrycaster long enough for the work to be done.
waldo041 wrote:from the front of the nut (fretboard side).

middle of neck = 20 1/2"
middle of middle = 22 1/4"
middle of bridge = 24 1/16"

 #136672  by waldo041
 Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:03 am
Jon S. wrote:Thanks for your continuing patience, waldo (seriously).

For the string distance from the middle PUP measurements on my guitar, I’m getting 13/64” on the bass side and 9/64” on the treble side. This is after I made the adjustments described below slightly over 2 years ago.
This intrigues me because you do have a decent string height but yet have to set the gain of the Proton to 3o'clock. I like to set my heights inbetween 10 - 12 /64" on the low e side and right at 9/64" on the high e like you have it. You did state that you had the buffered line 6 unit in the loop after the Proton, try removing it and use just the Proton? Which CAE buffer are you using?

 #136675  by Jon S.
 Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:49 am
I actually have a new theory that I'll test after breakfast. I use my Jerrycaster all the time and I don't remember when I last changed the battery. So I'll change it and test that, too.

I have the CAE CB1 (pic below). It's in the plastic bag because that's how Phil (the luthier) wired it.

On a related topic, all things considered, six years later, and a bit wiser, I'm going to replace the CAE with one of yours (small/unity gain, assuming the regular model is less than unity - that's correct, right?). I'll place my order upon hearing back from you on the unity question.

Last edited by Jon S. on Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
 #136676  by augustwest1
 Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:03 am
I doubt it's the battery, since when they go, there is no doubt about it.

And while pickup height certainly has something to do with it, minuscule adjustments to my MU3+'s peak setting yields essentially identical (to my ears) results notwithstanding the slightly different pickup height on my guitars.

For me at least, picking technique is way more important that PU height --where I pick and what what I pick with are key.
 #136678  by waldo041
 Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:15 am
This could be a battery issue, a fresh one will determine that. Also, pickup height will dictate picking dynamics. Picking dynamics are important with envelope filters, but pickup height will determine how hard or soft you will need to pick. So pickup height, imho, is very important when it comes to envelope filters.

The Proton should have no problem with the cb-1's output. It is a unity gain preamp, and yes i can do a small unity Tpc-1 version if wanted.

 #136679  by Jon S.
 Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:30 am
Thanks again and I think I've put my finger on my Proton issue.

#1, the battery did need to be replaced. The CB1 is supposed to "see" 9V. I know from a past experience that it will still function when the battery is down as low as 6V (perhaps lower, but I once reached and then measured 6V from the battery so that's my "tested" lower voltage limit) but the tone/output is affected. Replacing my battery made an audible difference (it also let me ease back at least an "hour" on the Proton's gain pot). I also very slightly raised my PUP heights which helped, too. I'm definitely not now having issues triggering the effect.

My issue - to the extent I actually have one, maybe the problem is my own in that I just haven't practiced enough with the effect to adapt to how best to pick with it - is not with the triggering, it's with the decay. This is a guitar I've never had any sustain issues with before whatsoever but with the Proton the guitar's notes - not the effect's decay frequency level but the overall decay of the guitar's own output - are not sustaining as long as would be ideal for this specific effect. At least that's what I'm hearing/feeling.

With my Line 6 M13's Tron Up model, as noted previously, I'm preceding the effect with a compressor. I set it up this way primarily to limit my upper volume threshold to avoid sharp and unwanted high transient peaks. But now that I've analyzed it further and A-B'd it with my Proton, it's clear to me that the comp is also serving as a sustainer - it's keepin my guitar's signal active longer than it would be without the comp (where it fades out faster) and this is a big help with using the Tron Up model.

Not sure what my next step will be but at least I feel now that I'm better understanding what I'm working with in this regard. (This experience has also benefited me in that, as a result of it, I've gone back and revisited several other aspects of my rig that I hadn't changed in a long while, making some [I hope!] further positive adjustments.)

One followup question I do have is did Jerry precede his MuTron with any effect (turned on, obviously) that would have served as a sort of "sustainer?"

P.S. to waldo: Just want to confirm before ordering - the regular Jerry version of your buffer, i.e., the not-unity-gain version, am I correct that its output is slightly less than unity?