rukind.com

Grateful Dead Music Forum

A place to talk about the music of the Grateful Dead 

 #109118  by gr8fullfred
 Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:31 am
The irony here is that your 86 PRS PROBABLY WAS a hand made instrument at the time.
That is what made them "great" or "popular". They were low production, semi rare, handmade beauties.

As time rolls on PRS becomes very popular, they start making a lot of money, a lot of guitars, more bigger factories, cheapo bolt on Korean guitars, etc etc.

The reason your 86 is so cool is that it is a limited production, hand made or semi hand made, early PRS guitar.

I have nothing against PRS, I actually like them, their tops, paint, and finish are awesome. I just do not like the tremolo.
 #109127  by Jon S.
 Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:12 am
This is where having visited PRS's USA factories regularly over the years has its bennies. The neck and body for my guitar, in '86, were duplicarved. Today, they would be CNC cut. In '86, several different individuals worked on my guitar (I'm fortunate to have met two of them personally, Mike Deely and John Ingram). Today, several + some more. But the overall amount of human labor on the guitars, then and today, is pretty much unchanged. Of course, there are some differences. On my '86, for example, you can readily see the use of filler on the moons because they weren't cut as precisely as PRS cuts their inlays today. I guess my bottom line is that people tend to make all sorts of assumptions of how different guitars are built based on our preconceptions, prejudices, expectations, etc. In PRS's USA factory, without a doubt, except for perhaps the Private Stock line, many different people work on every guitar. But the work they're doing, apart from cutting the neck, body, and inlays, they're doing by hand just like they did in '86. I know - I've observed it personally. And the Korean line - that's a totally separate issue. My take on that I've expressed here several times previously: I like it when poor people and kids can have one, too. I wish it were happening also with Garcia-style guitars.
 #109233  by claytushaywood
 Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:02 pm
$3800 for Korean?? I could expect near that price for japanese. I saw a brand new Scott Walker hand made, amazing american guitar go for $3200 on ebay.

So we must be talking exact copy... like to the T... brass and everything? Right?

Man I was excited about this when I first heard. I'm with everyone else, if you're gonna make a budget version, strip down the ornate shit a little bit and bring the price down.
 #109237  by vwjodyme
 Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:59 am
not trying to be sarcastic here, but are all korean guitars made by the same factory that only produce garbage guitars? I find it hard to believe that out of a whole country there is only one group of people making guitars.
i would imagine in this day and age that some korean would have gone to japan or some luthier school somewhere and is making decent guitars in korea. i could be wrong tho...never been
 #109243  by hippieguy1954
 Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:37 am
vwjodyme wrote:not trying to be sarcastic here, but are all korean guitars made by the same factory that only produce garbage guitars? I find it hard to believe that out of a whole country there is only one group of people making guitars.
i would imagine in this day and age that some korean would have gone to japan or some luthier school somewhere and is making decent guitars in korea. i could be wrong tho...never been
No, they are all made in several small factories. Yes, there are many good luthiers there and the quality of work has improved immensely! There is even a group of "not well known guitars" comming from Korea at dirt prices that are very well made neck through guitars (not going to list brands...do a google search).
Just for fun, I bought a brand new out of the box Squire Standard Korean Strat (about a month ago) to check this whole Korea thing out. I did have to re-seat the neck and dress the frets, but besides that, the action, the pickups, the intonation, the pots, the tuners and the sound is all excellent. Just as good as my American Standard except for the neck re-seat and the fret dressing! I replaced the pickups in my American Strat, but do not have to replace them in the Korean Squire Standard because they are using very good ones.
Sure they get paid dirt, but the human experience has shown us that even when getting paid dirt, some humans will strive to do the very best they can. I'm sure you know a few who do thier best at everything even when getting paid dirt. I do.
All this being said, there are diligent workers every where in the world and there are "who cares" workers all over the world too. You can go to a music store and play 5 different American made top of the line expensive guitars and one will have issues because the "who cares" guy built it and quality control made an exception. Happens all the time! Trust me, I know!
:smile: :smile: :smile:
 #109248  by Jon S.
 Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:56 am
Some darn good guitars are being built in Korea today for well under a grand street price. My faves are the Reverends. Argue with me on this only if you have actually played one - they can hang with USA guitars that sell for 3X+ the price. Some quick examples:

Image

Image

Image
 #109251  by claytushaywood
 Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:55 pm
arent reverends $1000 or so? hang with some US guitars commanding 3x the price... yes! key word is SOME. I dont think korean guitars are bad, not at all. much better experience with korean than chinese... even though the chinese are getting better too! korea has been making good guitars for years,, the korean epiphones destroy the newer chinese ones. absolutely!

but to charge nearly $4000 for a guitar made in korea, maybe it would be worth it... But I'd rather pay an extra G and get a handmade in the US guitar. or... even save a G and get a quality handmade guitar. Let's just forget the country of origin, and say $4000 should get you a handmade guitar. unless all you know is a musicians friend catalog and you get one of those $4000 CS fender or les pauls.

There's just better options out there these days. I guess they are $1000 cheaper than similarly ornate scott walker handmade guitar (that i referenced in the above post) though their are two demos on ebay for near 3G. man i would kill to have 3 grand right now... KILL. anyone need a problem to disappear? sorry ive been watching boardwalk empire.

I am posting because I was disappointed... I thought these guitars would be in the $2500 range for a tiger and 2000 for a wolf. Or be less ornate and less money... I guess it's too early to tell... Arent there guys in the US that build handmade wolfs in the $2-3K range?
 #109266  by strumminsix
 Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:09 pm
claytushaywood wrote:but to charge nearly $4000 for a guitar made in korea, maybe it would be worth it... But I'd rather pay an extra G and get a handmade in the US guitar. or... even save a G and get a quality handmade guitar.
Ummmm, family of luthiers out here makes 'em hand made for 2k
 #109267  by Tennessee Jedi
 Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:37 pm
claytushaywood wrote:arent reverends $1000 or so? hang with some US guitars commanding 3x the price... yes! key word is SOME. I dont think korean guitars are bad, not at all. much better experience with korean than chinese... even though the chinese are getting better too! korea has been making good guitars for years,, the korean epiphones destroy the newer chinese ones. absolutely!

but to charge nearly $4000 for a guitar made in korea, maybe it would be worth it... But I'd rather pay an extra G and get a handmade in the US guitar. or... even save a G and get a quality handmade guitar. Let's just forget the country of origin, and say $4000 should get you a handmade guitar. unless all you know is a musicians friend catalog and you get one of those $4000 CS fender or les pauls.

There's just better options out there these days. I guess they are $1000 cheaper than similarly ornate scott walker handmade guitar (that i referenced in the above post) though their are two demos on ebay for near 3G. man i would kill to have 3 grand right now... KILL. anyone need a problem to disappear? sorry ive been watching boardwalk empire.

I am posting because I was disappointed... I thought these guitars would be in the $2500 range for a tiger and 2000 for a wolf. Or be less ornate and less money... I guess it's too early to tell... Arent there guys in the US that build handmade wolfs in the $2-3K range?
Me thinks you are comparing apples to oranges ... a custom build could take years vs a factory built off the wall deal ...
Until we see one of these bad boys speculation is just that.
 #112593  by Thomas Lieber
 Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:12 am
Howdy folks,
Well it is a moot point @ any price. Mass production of these guitar designs will not happen overseas or @ home in the USA! We have had several prototypes sent to us and the quality of luthiership is really remarkable! But the consistency of wood quality and cost for the mass production of these models is not doable.

We were hoping to offer people the real deal, a sanctioned Irwin @ a reasonable cost. I am afraid the only alternative is the custom builder for our designs.

best,

Thomas
 #112595  by tcsned
 Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:09 am
Sorry to hear that Thomas but if they couldn't produce a worthy product then you were right to bail on the plan. Have you thought of licensing some of these guys who are producing a quality product already.
 #112628  by Thomas Lieber
 Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:30 am
Doug and I have spoken at length about possible licensing or sanctioning of the guitar designs. There has been only one builder of the dozens creating these copies who broached us with this subject and whose product we both deem as worthy. But ultimately Doug feels it is difficult to police the product quality of others. Policing product is not something he wishes to be involved with in his retirement.

best,
Thomas
 #112630  by jackevorkian
 Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:52 am
Have you approached the Premier Builder's Guild? They're producing licensed versions of guitars from some of todays best luthiers. I suspect they could build a pretty nice Irwin, right here in the US.
 #112631  by Jon S.
 Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:23 am
If there's anyone in the US who could pull this off w/quality & class it's Gene Baker of PBG.