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Musical Theory Abound!!!
 #7895  by BlobWeird
 Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:20 pm
shakedown_04092 wrote:
beatHopper wrote:The song part of Eyes is in E major (E Ionian).

The jam / guitar solo part of the song modulates based on the chord:

Over the Emaj7 play E Ionian.

Over the Bm play B Dorian (A major, second mode).

Over the A play A Ionian.


The difference being that the Bm chord contains a D (B D F#), and the Emaj7 contains a D# (E G# B D#).

Speaking of Eyes, how does everyone play the "jam" part?

The reason I ask is because we often have this arguement (read: discussion) in our band on how it goes. Some say the jam is just Emaj7 & Bm, others say it's Emaj7, Bm, & A. I say it's Emaj7 & Bm until the jam itself ends, and to signal the end of the jam, you go to the A, which'll lead you right into the next verse.

Any thoughts?
They jam E Bm A until the last jam before it goes to the Dm jam then they only jam on E. Then from there it switches back and forth from Dm to E until it ends on Dm.

 #8826  by tigerstrat
 Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:34 am
Disagree w/ the entire last post...

But just dropped in to say that the Casper's Althea discussion post alerted me to the fact that the list has it in the key of E when it should be A.

And looking down the list a few entries I see that Black Peter should be in D (C bridge), not A.

 #8931  by qiuniu
 Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:12 pm
Any ideas on scales for the lead on Lovelight?

I'm listening to gd70-03-24d2t6 and I've tried the Major Pent for E as well as A and B, and I also tried those three in Ionian but nothing sounds right, any one got any good ideas?

 #8960  by wisedyes
 Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:36 pm
Leads to Lovelight are usually played in either the good old E penatatonic minor, or E mixolydian ( my fave ). You can slip into A minor pentatonic or A mixolydian over the A7 chord if you want, it does break it up, but it works if you just stay in either E scale for the whole thing too.

 #10053  by pinkfloyd188
 Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:10 pm
Good Morning Little Schoolgirl is missing, though i have reason to believe its in the key of A using a blues/pent minor scale. correct me if im wrong.

 #10215  by pinkfloyd188
 Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:10 pm
request: key signature and scale for They Love Each Other

 #10220  by tigerstrat
 Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:31 pm
TLEO: C, Mixolydian (edit: very WRONG, as pointed out below)
Last edited by tigerstrat on Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

 #10547  by Billbbill
 Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:11 am
Are you sure here tiger?

*TLEO: C, Mixolydian*

You're more on top of this stuff than me but shouldn't that Bb (flat 7th of C mixo) be a B? - and then maybe it's C Ionian?

The beginning of the verse melody is

b--------3-3-5-3--
g------4-----------

isn't it?

Now in case we're talkin apples and oranges I start with the G chord, like the tab on this site. Maybe you're starting on the C?

 #10548  by Rev_Roach
 Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:01 am
Bill, I play TLEO starting with G like you do. I am pretty confident the key of the song is G mixolydian.

The verses are almost strictly in G major pentatonic (which lacks the 7th and 4th, so it can be considered a subset of Ionian, Mixolydian, or even Lydian, though the C chord elminates the possibility of Lydian). While this doesn't indicate the mode, its pretty clear that G is the tonal center.

If you still suspect the key might be C, just try playing the song and strumming C at the end. You'll see how unresolved it sounds. Do the same with G, it will sound much better.

The chorus F-C-G is what points towards Mixolydian. The F chord makes it pretty conclusive. No place for F# here. Plus the fact that the dominant chord (D) NEVER occurs, where it is a staple chord for most songs in Ionian mode.

While if you had to pick a mode, I'd say G Mixolydian, you shouldnt just blindly solo on that throughout the song.

I have found it best to use G Major Pentatonic during the verses, and play tonally (follow the changes), based around arpeggios during the chorus.

While on the topic of this song, does anyone know the chords for the bridge? (I feel like the end of it might be A to D, but I'm far from sure) Or any tips concerning strumming patterns or anything else for playing the older quicker verison?

 #10549  by Billbbill
 Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:53 pm
Hey Rev,
Thanks for your info. I'm pretty horrible at discerning what key a song is in, though I could give a good idea as to which notes to play. I agree with you that as we play it, the notes are as we stated. I mention C Ionian beacause they're the same notes as G mixolydian and that's the key tiger mentioned.

I have a post in a tleo thread that I'm planning to do a vid of at some point. I prefer the 'newer' slower version so I can't help you with that old time bridge.

I pretty much play G mixolydian for this with some flat third accents and pay hommage to the changes as I feel necessary. Some chromatics here and there as well.

 #10556  by tigerstrat
 Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:16 pm
Yep, it's G mixo alright! Not C mixo. Apologies to all. Once again I'm guilty of a careless posting, especially when not double-checking with an instrument in hand. I read this rebuttal, picked up a guitar to check it out and sure enough the first thing I notice is I'm playing a B natural over the C chord, or C Ionian... corresponding to G mixo. :?

 #10558  by Billbbill
 Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:46 pm
Thanks for clarifying tiger. I know you know your shit, so you had me a wonderin'.

:-)

 #10589  by mttourpro
 Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:34 pm
Guess I'm a bit late to this thread, but thought I'd mention/add a couple things...

Going back to page 5 where someone mentions "the Blue Book"----just an FYI, it was called "Oh, Oh,What I want to know, How Does the Song Go?!" and was put together by a guy I met on tour in 93 named ArJay (I think) who's from Cincinatti. I kept in touch with him as he made continued refinements---I even gave him charts for Sailor>Saint once for a free copy of his latest edition. He's prolly still around somewhere playing guitar.

As for questions about Miss 1/2 Step, it's really in the key of C for the verses and then to A for the ending/vocal part. Of course, the intro before the verses starts on A and goes down (melodically) a half-step until using a D and then G chord before the verse. The half-steps down do correspond to specific chords (A min, C aug, C maj, CEF#,, D and G. The middle sections (bridge?) uses very similar chords with some variation on the final 4 chords---If someone's really interested, I can post more detail on that.

As for questions on the jam for Eyes, folks who said there are 2 jams are correct. One is E maj 7, B min 7 and A major 7 and the other is simple E maj 7 to B min---we put a one note "A" tag on this one during solos....the end jam is the same as the beggining just going E maj 7 to A Maj 7----that is unless you're really adventurous and use a version from say 73 where they go up to (I think) an Ab min 7 type of riff.


Also...here's a quote from a previous page...

I know I could've posted this in the "song" catagory, but I figured it'd get more visability here.

Anyone know the solos for bot Help & Slipknot?

I was tinkering with it just now, and I figured the Help solo was in Fm (Aeolian?) and the Slipknot solo (the "jam" they do after initially entering Slipknot, but before they do the big build-up at the end) sounded like it was in Am (also Aoelian?).

Any "help" would be greatly appreciated.

PS - this suite of songs (minus the Franklins) is a bitch to tackle....any tips wuld also be greatly appreciated. Man, the fingers gotta be on to hit it right....


Quite difficult to explain in writing (and I play keys, so tab is meaningless to me) but here goes....

Help is in F minor. The intro chords (da-ta, da-ta played 4 times) are F minor 9ths which lead into a pattern of arpeggiated chords based on F minor 9.

Once Slipnot starts, you play the same 4 chords and series of notes which I'll call the "main riff" as in Help...again, 4 times. The riffs after that are also broken up chords (arpeggios). The exact notes are as follow:

F A C Bb, Bb

(%)C Eb Gb A C A Gb Eb, A Gb Eb C, Gb Eb C A

G same pattern as the main riff---just start on G and only do one time)...play G Bb D C and

then (*)use diminshed arpeggios starting on

C then D---same exact arpeggio, then play notes ascending E A B E

once you get to that top E, you're gonna want to play descending minor 7 arpeggios which outline the following chords. You'll want your first note of each arpeggio to be the 7th so that you play the 7th, 5th, min 3rd and root of each arpeggio descending in that order for each of these:

Bmin7, F# min 7 A min 7, E min 7, Bmin7,

A min7, E min 7 to a big fat A minor chord which goes to an A minor 9 (back and forth 2 times quickly)

You are now ready to JAM!

The jam of course is in A minor----some folks like to bounce bewteen A min7/9 and D 7/9----whichever way your pleasure tends....after the long jam you'll come out of the jam into an ascending chords that goes

A min, B Min, C, D E min

A min B Min, C D C

after about 4 or 8 of these, you'll finish with a

Dmajor (let it ring for 4 bars) then a Bminor chord (also 4 bars) and finally come to a well deserved rest on A minor for 2 bars. Then play the "main riff" starting on A. Play it once and then let the drummers take over. Do that call and response thing with the drums 4 times followed by the same set of patterns(&) you used to get to this jam in the first place. SEE BELOW


(*)then use diminshed arpeggios starting on

C then D---same exact arpeggio, then play notes ascending E A B E

once you get to that top E, you're gonna want to play descending minor 7 arpeggios which outline the following chords

Bmin7, F# min 7 A min 7, E min 7, Bmin7,

A min7, E min 7 to a big fat A minor chord which goes to an A minor 9 (back and forth 2 times quickly)

You are now ready to play Franklin's....Pretty simple huh....


I'm sure that is all fairly confusing (and I just did this at my desk at work, so, it might be a bit off) but if you try it and have some questions, get back---I'll be happy to help clarify any trouble spots.



Now, who's gonna help me with King Solomon's Marbles??!!

 #10605  by tigerstrat
 Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:45 pm
mttourpro wrote:Guess I'm a bit late to this thread, but thought I'd mention/add a couple things...
This and all song threads are very much works in progress, with no expiration dates. Welcome! Nice walk-thru explanation of Help Slip. With the detail of this post it should perhaps be reposted to the Help and Slip discussion(s?)

However it does seem off at the very end of the 2nd "slipknot", where you appear to have pasted the conclusion of the 1st sequence rather than the 2nd conclusion, which sets up Franklin's:
mttourpro wrote:... to a big fat A minor chord which goes to an A minor 9 (back and forth 2 times quickly)

You are now ready to play Franklin's....Pretty simple huh....
That should read:
...to a big fat A major chord which goes to a Cmaj7/G + outro lick (not tabbed)... NOW you asre ready to play Franklin's!

 #10613  by tigerstrat
 Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:12 am
also the solo in Help is Fm Dorian w/a D nat, not Aeolian w/a Db.

The jam in Slip is Am but the heavy emphasis of both the b6 AND 6 makes this not Aeolian but what I have seen referred to as the Bebop Minor scale:
{1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 7} ... the name could also be hybridized to call it something like Dor-ydian,or Doronian or Aeolydian... or simply harmonic-melodic.
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