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Chord/Scale Question

PostPosted:Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:52 pm
by OhioBuckeye
Is it safe to say that when you read sheet music and it shows the chord that all of the notes in those measure indicated by that chord will be in that scale?

So for example if it's listed as C would you expect all the notes to be in the C major scale?

Thanks

OB

PostPosted:Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:57 am
by sarraqum
If C chord is listen on the sheet music wouldn't it just show C E G, the triad?
Then again, I guess it all depends on how adventurous the musician was.....think of using two keys, diminished or augmented chords, chromatic runs, etc.

PostPosted:Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:22 am
by dahmbomb
"Is it safe to say that when you read sheet music and it shows the chord that all of the notes in those measure indicated by that chord will be in that scale? "

NO. It is likely - but not at all for sure.

PostPosted:Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:09 am
by jackr
No, I dont think it is safe to say that. Although it would be more common.

There could easily be an accidental in the measure.

Also for example if it is a C7 chord there is a Bb in there which is not in the key of C.

PostPosted:Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:19 pm
by wisedyes
No, the notes in the staff are the melody line, and they definitely do NOT have to be in complete diatonic agreement with the underlying harmonization ( the chord above the staff ). That's how you get dissonance in music, after all. If everything was always diatonic all the time there would be no tension and release.

PostPosted:Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:06 pm
by krzykat
on the left side of the staff is the key signature, it will show you what notes are sharp or flat (thus tellihn you what scale to use)

PostPosted:Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:07 pm
by XxRouninxX
krzykat wrote:on the left side of the staff is the key signature, it will show you what notes are sharp or flat (thus tellihn you what scale to use)
and to add to that, when you see a sharp or flat on the staff other than the key signature, your seeing a chromatic note (or a modulation, depends on the context.)

all natural, unmarked notes on the staff (once the key signature is defined) all fall within the diatonic framework... so the key signature is a kind of "set it and forget it" and the notes on the staff become more of a representation of scale degree than identifying a specific note out of context.

So keep playing in that scale, as long as there are no accidentals... once an accidental comes up on the staff you know you've hit an outside-tone.
Is it safe to say that when you read sheet music and it shows the chord that all of the notes in those measure indicated by that chord will be in that scale?

So for example if it's listed as C would you expect all the notes to be in the C major scale?

Thanks

OB
so to answer your question, it is safe (and practical, and usually right) to assume that all NATURAL notes/chords marked on the staff all belong to the same key of the signature.

but that doesn't mean that "all of the notes in those measure indicated by that chord will be in that scale?" like someone said a cpl posts back, that would be unadventerous boring music.. But if in a measure all of your notes are natural, then they *can* be considered to belong to the same key.

Just remember, everything is contextual, so its just as important to know the song your learning as it is to know how to read sheet music to learn it.


hope that helps

PostPosted:Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:15 pm
by BuddhaG
if there are notes outside of the scale in the staff, doesn't that just imply that a different mode than ionian is being used for the melody line?

PostPosted:Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:23 pm
by XxRouninxX
nope, look for example.. song in th ekey of C..

notes are C D E F G A B C...

No key signature, and all marked notes on the staff are natural.

Now if there is a modulation to another mode WITHIN the key such as:

D Dorian
D E F G A B C D
E Phrygian
E F G A B C D E
F Lydian
F G A B C D E F
G Mixolydian
G A B C D E F G
A Aolean
A B C D E F G A
B Locrian
D E F G A B C

So you can see that all the modes of the SAME KEY all share the same notes, so they are marked using the same notes on a staff.

So a modulation from C major to A minor, is really just changing the tonal centre within the same key, we use all the same notes, thats why i said its important to know the song your learning.

Now there are modulations where you change keys, such as moving from C major, to D major
C D E F G A B C to D E F# G A B C# D

So if you see the F# and C#, you can assume you've modulated to the key of D, and that modulation will stay until the notes are returned to thier original state with a natural sign.

You can even move from the mode of one key to the mode of another, such as moving from G Mixolydian
G A B C D E F G to B Aolean B C# D E F# G A B

So again # and flat notes on the staff (other than the key signature)are either brief Chromaticism, or key shift.

modulating to a mode within the same key is a tonal modulation, but not a key modulation

PostPosted:Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:09 pm
by cunamara
XxRouninxX wrote:So a modulation from C major to A minor, is really just changing the tonal centre within the same key, we use all the same notes, thats why i said its important to know the song your learning.
I don't want to muddy the discussion too much here, but this isn't quite correct terminology IMHO. I would say you are staying in the same tonal center so long as you are discussing the A natural minor scale- because A natural minor is the relative minor of C major and vice versa. As you point out, they share the same notes (C D E F G A B C versus A B C D E F G A). But if the change is from C major to A melodic minor (A B C D E F# G# A) or A harmonic minor (A B C D E F G# A), then you've changed to a different tonal center. However, one is unlikely to encounter the harmonic or melodic minor in popular music (although maybe in some Phil tunes).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale
modulating to a mode within the same key is a tonal modulation, but not a key modulation
I think that would properly be called a modal rather than tonal modulation. See tonality and tonal centers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality

Of course, I could be all wet too!

PostPosted:Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:49 pm
by Rev_Roach
I think some of you are looking a little too deep with this discussion of modulation and accidentals.

Even in a very simple and entirely diatonic (no accidentals) song, not all melody notes will be notes of the harmony's chord.

Allow me to illustrate with the first line of Mary Had a Little Lamb in G. Chord is G the entire time.

B A G A B B B

B and G are within the G chord, but A is not. The notes between the chord tones are quite frequently used, but certainly not the only possible notes outside the chord.

Hope this helps.