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 #50191  by pappypgh
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:22 am
I'm also going to repeat this (very important) phrase: DO NOT GET STUCK ON ONE VERSION. Listen to SEVERAL versions.

 #50192  by Pete B.
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:25 am
Watch that YT.
It's A in the 2nd verse too.
He goes from F#m to A7.
Maybe not so critical after all that we all play F#m to A in the 1st half and F#m>E in the 2nd half?
That's the thing about claiming absolute correctness...
People jump yer shite!!!
:cool:

Here, let me try it...
There is definitely not an E in 2nd half of the verse.

Yee Haww!!!
Last edited by Pete B. on Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

 #50194  by Emoto
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:37 am
Pappy, you don't sound like a prick.

I am going to play it both ways after work and see how it feels (in the end). I am always happy to improve what I do.

 #50195  by jonarobb
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:56 am
pappypgh wrote::roll:
You're wrong. He clearly plays the E on the 3rd line. Sorry. Watched it about 10 times now - and went through this same argument about 15 years ago (from YOUR side) and it was proven to ME at the time. LISTEN.

He plays the A with 3 fingers as the "passing chord". He uses 1 finger at the beginning of the song, so he can play the riff. That is proper form on playing an open A. Take a guitar lesson. You'll find I'm right.

I will have this argument all day on this song. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN. There are 2 distinctly different chords on those 2 lines. The first is an A, the second is an E. You can ask Dozin to ask Bob or whatever you wanna do. I hate to sound like a prick-know-it-all, but in THIS case...I'm 100% correct.
I listened (and watched)....

It's a A7/E anyway you slice it. Like I said, Jerry's walking down from the F#m. He uses the D string as he moves down.
But like Waldo said, he plays this with his fingers mostly, and as such, he comes off with some bizzare pinching from his right hand to get all those strings ringing.


The notes are: F#, E, D, D#
The chords are: F#m, A7/E, D7, D#dim

It's no problem man. You're not a prick. And I certainly don't mean to come off as a know it all. I've learned this stuff the hard way. Trial and error. Kindly being corrected by others that play. People can play it any way they dig it. You're just not allowing yourself to hear the chord structure that supports that E note.

After watching and listening to the vids, it's even more clear because you can hear that open G string in the middle of the A7 ringing out as Jer pinches it. God! he's twangy!

Just for reference I watched the 4/77 Capitol Theater, and the 89' Shoreline......

 #50208  by tigerstrat
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:56 am
jonarobb wrote:Additionally, the F#dim is incorrectly ID'd. It should read D#dim. Essentially the same chord but since its the chromatic passing chord from the D7 it should be labeled accordingly.
If you really want to stickle on nomenclature, I'd call that an Eb dim7, since there is already a D natural in the progression, and no E (another vote for A on the 3rd line. Just watched it on 6/21/89 just in case my ears were fooling me.)

I also noticed a couple of 5 way settings he was using (will post to the "coil tap" thread where they are being discussed)

 #50222  by jonarobb
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:35 pm
tigerstrat wrote:
jonarobb wrote:Additionally, the F#dim is incorrectly ID'd. It should read D#dim. Essentially the same chord but since its the chromatic passing chord from the D7 it should be labeled accordingly.
If you really want to stickle on nomenclature, I'd call that an Eb dim7, since there is already a D natural in the progression, and no E (another vote for A on the 3rd line. Just watched it on 6/21/89 just in case my ears were fooling me.)

I also noticed a couple of 5 way settings he was using (will post to the "coil tap" thread where they are being discussed)
:D

You're probably right. I'm not sure myself. We actually could call it any of these:

Adim
Adim/F#
Adim7
Cdim
Cdim/A
Cdim7
Ebdim/C
Ebdim7
F#dim
F#dim/Eb
F#dim7

But since it's a "root progression" passing chord as opposed to "voice leading" passing chord I always name them by the root. Since Deal is in A major, which has sharps as opposed to flats, D#dim(D#dim7) would be appropriate.

When I'm playing with someone I usually just say passing chord and hopefully they know enough theory to make it work.

If all else fails just turn up the volume!

;)

 #50226  by SpaceYrface43
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:16 pm
I was at the Orchard Park 89 show had seats in the nose bleeds but i can clearly remember seeing Jerry going from the F#min to the E so how do you like that. :cool:

 #50227  by SpaceYrface43
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:18 pm
Who care's this argument is ridiculous, play what ever sounds good to you. The E sounds fine and so does the A pick one.

 #50229  by jonarobb
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:50 pm
SpaceYrface43 wrote:Who care's this argument is ridiculous, play what ever sounds good to you. The E sounds fine and so does the A pick one.
I thought this was a cool argument. Isn't that what this board is about? Helping folks get the sound, and the tools to do it? As far as playing whatever sounds good to you, yeah, that's cool too. But there's something to be said about being a little more precise. I notice everyone on here is really into their gear, and their tone, and their chops. So hopefully this ridiculous argument yields some results instead of just being like, "who cares". That seems kind of lame to me. But, hey, who cares? Right?

 #50230  by milobender
 Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:58 pm
I appreciate the different points of view myself :smile: Thanks for everyone's input and kind words.

I tried both ways at practice last night, and I didn't really like using a complete E maj chord. I think for me it's more on the order of a partial A7 as has been suggested. However, for me, it's more important that it fits in my understanding of the music, and works in my limited musical methodology :D I've also used an A maj chord there using the G and B strings after the Fmin7 (accenting the root) so the sound/phrase seems to go up to the D (first position) and then to the questionable D#/I'm not able to name it :D My goal is to know as much as possible, and be flexible enough to keep trying new stuff in the moment.

 #50239  by SpaceYrface43
 Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:50 am
You'll never develope your own style if you keep trying to emulate Jerry. Jimmy Herring was quoted as saying he stopped listening to the Dead because he didn't want to sound to much like Jerry he wanted to bring his own flavor to the table. Good luck sorry about saying the argument was ridiculous i was out of line that is what this forum is for.

 #50247  by Tennessee Jedi
 Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:02 am
I was at the Orchard Park 89 show had seats in the nose bleeds but i can clearly remember seeing Jerry going from the F#min to the E so how do you like that.
:lol:
Why does it have to be described as an "argument" ?
How about "constructive interactions" ?
You'll never develope your own style if you keep trying to emulate Jerry.
You might be missing the point - there are some here who actually WANT ( Gasp !! ) to play in Jerry's style.
Its an obsession but its pleasing...

 #50272  by jonarobb
 Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:00 am
Tennessee Jedi wrote:
I was at the Orchard Park 89 show had seats in the nose bleeds but i can clearly remember seeing Jerry going from the F#min to the E so how do you like that.
:lol:
Why does it have to be described as an "argument" ?
How about "constructive interactions" ?
You'll never develope your own style if you keep trying to emulate Jerry.
You might be missing the point - there are some here who actually WANT ( Gasp !! ) to play in Jerry's style.
Its an obsession but its pleasing...

Well put.

I've re-discovered just how much I love Deal!

I'm one of those cats, admittedly, that likes sounding like Jerry(as much as humanly possible). That's one of the reasons I dig this board. We're all kind of out of the closet, so to speak.

 #50274  by Pete B.
 Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:34 am
fwiw, My fingers want to play that F#m>E>D>D#dim every time it comes around.
I had to fight it off while playing along with some Jerry Deal YT's yesterday.
30 years of playing it off the cuff'll build some strong muscle memories!
I also play B9 instead of Bmin in the second half of the BlackTW bridge.
And Fm instead of F7 the second half of Lazy L verse.
There must be a million of them that I play differently than the original composer, just cuz it sounds cooler to me and is funner for me.
I jam most every Monday night with a DeadHead Trio, so, no conflicts with my embellishments!... My changes don't require any change in the Bass players note selections.
Mama's hide yer daughters!!!
Last edited by Pete B. on Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.