Grateful Dead Music Forum

A place to talk about the music of the Grateful Dead 

Chat about Equipment Info
 #72752  by Mick
 Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:40 pm
waldo041 wrote:i am not playing stupid mick, and am in no way calling you stupid, and am not trying to take offense to your "i know better".
I'm not sure where this "I know better" is coming from, since my position is, and has always been, that I DON'T KNOW. You seem to feel you know better, but haven't posted anything to support it as far as I can identify. The part about Mountain Girl delivering cash to Doug Irwin has been on the internet for years. I have yet to see any new information in this thread. Please correct me if I am wrong here.
but i seriously believe you feel doug was treated unfairly and refuse to hear what really went down,
Wrong again. I THINK Doug may have been treated unfairly, but I don't know. As I have said about three times, I have read everything I could find on the subject, and believe that all that I have read is more or less true. But if you think we are getting the whole story, I think you are mistaken. That is all. The "all for one and one for all" line is just laughable though, and obviously part of a lame attempt to mitigate the reputational damage that sicking their legal team on an ailing Doug Irwin did.
and choose hypotheticals or your corporate knowledge as a tool to change my thought process.
Dude, I was just expressing my opinion here and discussing our different views of the issue. I sure as hell don't want to change anyone's thought process. And even if I did, I'm pretty sure I would want to change it to something other than mine. The "hypotheticals" were only meant to show that there are important issues relative to the ownership of the guitars that we know nothing about. There is nothing "hypothetical" about the lack of relevant facts here. In fact, I would say that the lack of facts is a fact in this case.
The parties were close to an agreement in November, but Mr Irwin pulled out at the last minute over a clause which would give the band first refusal before he sold any of the guitars.

Mr Irwin's lawyers said that could scare off any potential bidders.
Mr. Irwin's lawyers are good ones. You can't auction something effectively when someone else has a ROFR on that item. Doug was right to walk away if that was the offer. What you seem to want to show me, that you think the boys were all good and upstanding toward Mr. Irwin, and what you are showing me, lots of gamesmanship being played by the surviving members of the GD to wrest those guitars out of his hands, are at complete odds with each other from where I sit.
Mr Irwin's attorney Douglas Long said the question of the guitars' value has been one of the big stumbling blocks to reaching a deal.

He said: "There is only one way to figure out what something is worth, and that is at public auction. You've got to give the world a chance to buy it."

i believe it was doug after the cash the whole time. and GDP was trying to protect the instruments. GDP would have never sold them at an auction because they felt they were part of them. and they would be displayed as the other are to this day!
Of course Doug was after the cash, he was out of work, unable to work, and broke. He had no other choice but to sell the guitars. If the surviving members of the GD wanted the guitars so bad, they should have bought them from him. That's why I really don't care to hear any whining from them about the guitars being in the hands of private collectors, they had first shot at them and wouldn't pay up for them.

they knew what was going to happen to them, and while they didn't say, i am sure this means they "tried" to compensate doug for them!
Maybe they did, but if they did, it looks to me like they didn't try very hard.
 #72773  by CoolBreeze
 Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:16 pm
Really- i was just mentioning that that Tiger was in Sports Illustrated . . . !

The Dead had an understanding (I think it was an understanding, and not a legal dictate) that the gear was communal property of the band.

But then Jer willed the guitars back to Irwin, and that was the first wrench in the machine- because that was a legal dictate.

Unfortunately, Irwin hit a bad stretch (happens to all of us) and had to sell the guitars. And I DO hope that made his situation better.

So he sold them. Whether or not the GDP could have -or even wanted -to buy them back, we'll probably never know for sure.

If I had a gazillion dollars, and had the chance to buy one of Jerry's guitars- I would! And from the passion on the postings on this subject- I think anyone else here would as well.

Personally, and at risk of sounding like a gushing fan-boy, that guitar played a large part in changing my life, my way of thinking, and how I listen to and play music. It was the guitar Jerry played longest in his rotation of instruments- hence the emotional attachment it carries for all of us. More people saw and heard Jer play that guitar more than any other.

So it belongs to Isray. It is his right to own it- I just think it should be in Hall. I see a thread has started to re-acquire the Tiger- and I wish all good things for that effort. Personally I think it would be more effective to bring pressure to have him display it- rather than to relinquish ownership. But that's just me.

From the conversations on this thus far, it is an important guitar to each of us, for many different and personal reasons. The way it all went down- well, it just doesn't matter now. The music he played on that axe nobody can ever take away, buy, or sell.

SO- the Hall has Tophat, Lightning Bolt, Rosebud, and the Wolf Jr. Two questions (this is where Waldo will point me to one of his or Dozin's pages that I've seen a hundred times and forgot). Who owns the Wolf? And why isn't it in the Hall? And- Rosebud was an Irwin guitar- how did she dodge the trials and tribulations of Irwin's other 2 guitars?

 #72777  by waldo041
 Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:59 pm
Naataanii wrote:Anyone here who can print t-shirts? we could sell "Free Tiger" shirts at the Furthur shows!

Maybe get Bobby to wear one and send it to Irsay.

best idea yet!!!

 #72785  by nabco
 Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:02 am
I will try to keep this statement as simple as possible because this is definitely a very touchy subject.

1. I am completely grateful for Waldos' efforts! As he stated he has provided a very detailed account of his observation of the other instruments, FOR FREE TO EVERYBODY. That to me seems very deadocratic.

2.I do like the ideas stated in the aquire tiger thread but , I think we should put our efforts into simply "Document Tiger". Do we need to have it be all lonely in some box in some building?

3.we could get signatures at the furthur shows or on the internet that support the idea that we want Waldo to represent the masses and document the guitar, or would he not care about millions of signatures.If he denies access, after we get tons of signatures to look at Tiger for what a few hours at most,THIS IS WHEN I THINK WE COULD HAVE A MEDIA "BLITZ" (no pun) and he can show the world who he is. Now Could Be a great time for this.

4. Maybe if we put some funding together to pay Waldo to document Tiger we could all let this issue come to pass.
To raise some money I do like the "FREE TIGER" T-Shirt idea. I Have two friends that make shirts so let me know!!! no Joke!!!
 #72789  by tcsned
 Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:50 am
I did my initial graduate training as a historian and using this lens looking at this issue leaves me here:
First, we are very lucky, almost every note Jerry played has been recorded and saved, resaved, and resaved. Every setlist from every show has been documented. Nothing short of Armageddon will wipe his contribution to music history off the landscape. I would think that this band has been documented more than most any other.
Second, the guys who built this guitar are still alive, one posts on this forum. A wealth of information has been gleaned from Thomas Lieber and from Doug Irwin, though more insight into the process could probably be gathered. I'm not a guitar builder and don't know what other information would be helpful but those guys are out there to get it.
Third, at least this guitar is still in the country. Imagine if some rich kid's dad across the ocean had bought this guitar for some spoiled schmuck and he plastered it with emo band stickers? At least the guitar seems to be in tact and well cared for.
Finally, has Irsay ever been contacted? Does he have any clue? He may be just another rich douchebag who hoards historically significant relics so he can brag about them at the country club - he does have at least two other guitars like this (Elvis' and George Harrison's) - I don't know. He might be reasonable if he is ever directly contacted.

IMHO - guitars exist to be played, a guitar in a glass case, even a cool one, is a waste of wood. It would be cool of the R&R HOF could display it from time to time but someone should be making music on this guitar, taking good care of it, but making music.

The information about the man, the band, and the guitar is what is really useful. That's what can survive well after this guitar has fallen apart. Think about it, the actual signed Declaration of Independence is a treasured relic but is of little real historical use. The words from the document, the story behind what brought it to fruition is what is historically valuable. This doesn't mean that the actual document is worthless and should be thrown out. It should be preserved as long as possible and be open for all of us to see. There is power in the tangible object but that isn't it's main value.
 #72822  by waldo041
 Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:06 pm
i have no shame in that brutus. that was well over 2 years ago after i was given, mind you after a good run around, 4 pictures of the cavities by his curator. no questions answer or provided, nada! i was told then it would make a tour at some point and that has thus far been a falacy. i have spoken directly to dan pritzker the owner of wolf, the GDP manager whom let me actually document their instruments and coutless others within the circle such as, turner, wickersham, cutler, healy, frank fuller and just recently have found hope in actually talking to irwin. but irsay and his people have since then have done nothing but give me the "we're not interested" in your documentation lines, albeit as polite as they could. i have tried every angle since then, and while i can't vouch for his personal character, my opinion has changed as to how i personally feel about the dude. no shame there, so no need to blush. i am only human, and at one point obviously felt he had some good intentions with the instrument. but know better now.

 #72824  by brutusbuck45
 Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:11 pm
I know, man. That was a long time ago. Certainly, opinions can change over time. I'm just bustin' b@lls. I was browsing through some older threads and actually just stumbled across that one. I thought it was worth a chuckle.

-Peace :smile:
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