Loud Matters

Re: Loud Matters

Postby mkaufman » Tue May 24, 2011 7:49 pm

Is there such thing as a speaker product with multiple speakers at varying angles - something kinda like the front half of a soccer ball. I'm thinking one speaker in the middle pointed straight ahead and then multiple speakers surrounding that speaker maybe pointed 30 degrees away from straight ahead? I know it's a strange idea (I can think of many potential issues), however, I'm looking for something that can really give me a wide dispersion for my sound. Yes, I've tried a beam blocker.

EDIT: the Wall of Sound!

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Re: Loud Matters

Postby JamminJommy » Tue May 24, 2011 11:42 pm

Does anyone have any info on Bobby's speakers from 89-90? The ones that kinda sat at the edge of the drum risers, but underneath them. Anyway, I feel like they would give a pretty decent dispersal (given the look of the things), though those particular ones were full range. I believe they also used some of those over by Brent so he could monitor himself, too. Not exactly the same idea, but it would accomplish the same thing for self-monitoring.

Come to think about it, Bobby could feedback with relative ease when he needed, so I bet he turned up to a decent volume as well. That stage must have been LOUD! :wink: :cool:

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Re: Loud Matters

Postby tigerstrat » Wed May 25, 2011 7:57 am

JamminJommy wrote:Does anyone have any info on Bobby's speakers from 89-90? The ones that kinda sat at the edge of the drum risers, but underneath them. Anyway, I feel like they would give a pretty decent dispersal (given the look of the things), though those particular ones were full range. I believe they also used some of those over by Brent so he could monitor himself, too. Not exactly the same idea, but it would accomplish the same thing for self-monitoring.


weren't these Meyer cabs? don't know the model...
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby JamminJommy » Wed May 25, 2011 12:26 pm

Yeah those are the ones. They could very well be. And I see two very large power amps in his rack on the left side of the picture. Like I said, I seem to recal him being able to get a fair amount of feedback out of those things. I bet he could hear himself anywhere on the stage. Jer's 3x12 looks to measly next to them!

SO when he WASN'T using horn stops (and sometimes even when he was) I bet that gave him some additional sustain (besides his ridiculous amount of signal processing). But anyway, that cabinet would probably do a fairly good job at dispersing the high frequencies, seeing as they appear to be 3-way cabs.

EDIT: But I bet that'd work best for people using digital gear at this point.

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Re: Loud Matters

Postby JonnyBoy » Wed May 25, 2011 1:03 pm

mkaufman wrote:Is there such thing as a speaker product with multiple speakers at varying angles - something kinda like the front half of a soccer ball. I'm thinking one speaker in the middle pointed straight ahead and then multiple speakers surrounding that speaker maybe pointed 30 degrees away from straight ahead? I know it's a strange idea (I can think of many potential issues), however, I'm looking for something that can really give me a wide dispersion for my sound. Yes, I've tried a beam blocker.

EDIT: the Wall of Sound!

mk


Bose makes a tower and so does Fishman. I think most people use them as acoustic PA's, but we have used them in a live band setting before. They have incredible dispersion and throw for what they are comprised of. We actually had some feedback issues with it at first, but it was the stage size and speaker placement more than anything. A few guys in town here either have the Bose or Fishman systems and when we hooked up a tower on both sides and two subs the sound was great. They seem to work well for small clubs and bars. Plus it sits behind you like the WOS. That would be my best guess... I have heard of 4-5 piece bands using them for PA's. Maybe you could make a speaker cab tower like that with 5" speakers angled like you mentioned. I think the bose and Fishman speakers are set at slight angles from each other, maybe I'm wrong about that....
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby zambiland » Wed May 25, 2011 10:42 pm

mkaufman wrote:Is there such thing as a speaker product with multiple speakers at varying angles - something kinda like the front half of a soccer ball. I'm thinking one speaker in the middle pointed straight ahead and then multiple speakers surrounding that speaker maybe pointed 30 degrees away from straight ahead? I know it's a strange idea (I can think of many potential issues), however, I'm looking for something that can really give me a wide dispersion for my sound. Yes, I've tried a beam blocker.

EDIT: the Wall of Sound!

mk



The path to good dispersion is often unintuitive. I've been using a fEARful cabinet for bass and it's got the best dispersion I've ever had. I've tried multiple driver setups before and they haven't worked very well, especially when pointed around the stage. If other areas of the stage want to hear just guitar, consider running an extension speaker on the other side of the stage.

The key to the wall of sound dispersion is not that speakers were pointed in different directions, but they were stacked one high. This gives excellent horizontal dispersion. However, it's not practical for small stages.

Another thing to do is just put the guitar in the monitors for those who don't hear it well. I guess you could also put the amp on the side of the stage, facing across rather than behind you facing out. Lots of options!

However, beware of creating extra spill that makes for a mushy sound in the room.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby strumminsix » Thu May 26, 2011 4:35 am

eeeeee wrote:
However, beware of creating extra spill that makes for a mushy sound in the room.

And of it being the cause of volume wars. You spill over a stage and the other guy either has to turn up to hear himself or gets all ascared that he is too low in the mix and cranks up. Then the drummer gets ever more caveman and hits 'em harder and so on...
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby mkaufman » Thu May 26, 2011 6:56 am

Edwin:

My issue is that unless standing directly in front of my amp, my sound is muddy(?). My late 70's Weir sound has mostly mids/upper-mids/higher frequency tones (not sure exactly what frequencies are), however, they don't disperse at all. I guess micing my guitar would help, however, we don't mic instruments at some venues.

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Re: Loud Matters

Postby strumminsix » Thu May 26, 2011 7:04 am

mkaufman wrote:Edwin:

My issue is that unless standing directly in front of my amp, my sound is muddy(?). My late 70's Weir sound has mostly mids/upper-mids/higher frequency tones (not sure exactly what frequencies are), however, they don't disperse at all. I guess micing my guitar would help, however, we don't mic instruments at some venues.

mk

MK - what enclose do you use? what speakers do you use? what amp w/wattaage and how loud? and are your speakers front-loaded?
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby mkaufman » Thu May 26, 2011 7:12 am

#1: Roland JC77 (2x10), all original

#2: Fender Twin head -> JBL D130F, rear-loaded in Newell 1x15 cab with beam blocker

I do not play at loud volumes.

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Re: Loud Matters

Postby strumminsix » Thu May 26, 2011 8:00 am

mkaufman wrote:#1: Roland JC77 (2x10), all original

#2: Fender Twin head -> JBL D130F, rear-loaded in Newell 1x15 cab with beam blocker

I do not play at loud volumes.

mk


Same problem with both? I assume you have your amp up off the ground and pointed at you, yes?

I don't believe that beam blockers work that well as they change your waves, I could be wrong.

I've done comparisons with front vs. rear loaded and find front disperses somewhat more as the baffle directs the sound waves straight. Also, I've found that vertical, strangely enough, disperses side to side better. My 2 ideas for ya, dude!
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby playingdead » Thu May 26, 2011 11:13 am

Those biamped Meyer cabinets are awesome but ridiculously expensive ... a single 12" + horn is thousands and thousands of dollars. Weir was using 15" + horn, I think, and four of them. That's enough PA for an entire loud band. I'll bet he could hear himself.

Years ago, when I played with UJB in Tampa, I would put the amp in front of me, leaning back, like a vocal monitor. Then I could hear everything perfectly without being stupid loud.In fact, I got the rhythm guitarist to do that, too. The PA took care of out front. I saw some recent photos of those guys at Skipper's in Tampa and it looks like they are still doing that.

With Playing Dead, I used to ask for enough guitar in my vocal wedge to fill it out without having to crank the JBLs up to death-ray levels. It helped, although the sound of the JBLs miked through the monitor was pretty bright for my taste, probably as a result of EQ'ing the wedge for vocals.

Now that I have the K12 as a floor wedge, I am a happy camper onstage.

BTW, MK, my Walker guitar with all three pickups on just kills on the late 70s early 80s Weir tone, thanks for the tip. I find I like it even better with the bridge and neck as humbuckers, fattens it up a bit without losing the glassy phased tone. Sounds equally good in the AxeFX with a Fender, Vox or Roland JC amp blocks and various speaker cabinet blocks -- JBLs, Jensens, EVs, Celestions, etc. The tube preamp drive characteristics just seem to add more warmth to it. It's definitely all about the three pickups being on. A very happy byproduct of my pickup wiring madness that I wasn't even trying to achieve. Now I want to try dialing in the phaser and wah pedal combination where the wah sweep also controls the phaser sweep.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby mkaufman » Thu May 26, 2011 12:27 pm

playingdead wrote:BTW, MK, my Walker guitar with all three pickups on just kills on the late 70s early 80s Weir tone, thanks for the tip. I find I like it even better with the bridge and neck as humbuckers, fattens it up a bit without losing the glassy phased tone. Sounds equally good in the AxeFX with a Fender, Vox or Roland JC amp blocks and various speaker cabinet blocks -- JBLs, Jensens, EVs, Celestions, etc. The tube preamp drive characteristics just seem to add more warmth to it. It's definitely all about the three pickups being on. A very happy byproduct of my pickup wiring madness that I wasn't even trying to achieve. Now I want to try dialing in the phaser and wah pedal combination where the wah sweep also controls the phaser sweep.


Vic - that's good to hear. It took a long time to get it just right. Not sure why...just needed to copy what Weir was doing!

btw...When you have the Weir AxeFx dialed in perfectly, let me know! That's when I'll buy mine!

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Re: Loud Matters

Postby Smolder » Sat May 12, 2012 4:48 pm

Resurrecting a (relatively) old thread.

This is a really great discussion. I think we play loud, but I doubt I'll ever really stress the single d120 or D130 I play through.

What's very interesting is that reading the thread, and thinking to just Thursday, I definitely find myself in front of my speaker coaxing additional sustain via tightly controlled feed back. My cab is typically slightly below butt level. I use jmrolph humbucker and they have a tendancy to feedback when uncovered like mine. I never really thought about it... I guess I just do it.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby zoooombiex » Sat May 12, 2012 10:48 pm

Regarding Beam Blockers -- There's nothing wrong with them if you like how they sound, but the premise behind them is wrong. There was a long-running thread over on the gear page where a loudspeaker designer explained this issue.

High frequencies don't come out of the center of the speaker preferentially compared to the edge of the cone. The perception of a high-frequency beam coming straight of the speaker exists because that is where the high frequencies are cancelled least by other parts of the signal coming out of the speaker. So if you're trying to reduce the high-frequency beam, putting a small circle right in the center of the speaker isn't really addressing the cause of the problem. (Again, it does affect the sound and it's fine if you like the effect.)

The speaker designer explained an alternative solution that is somewhat counter-intuitive - it involves cutting a doughnut-shaped piece of absorbent foam that sits in front of the outside of the speaker (leaving a hole in the center). The foam catches a bunch of the high frequencies that make up the beam, but lets lower frequencies through. So it effectively darkens the on-axis response to match what you normally hear off-axis. Pretty much everyone who tried it had a positive response, though I haven't personally tried it since I don't have an issue with this.
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