Loud Matters

Re: Loud Matters

Postby Pete B. » Wed May 11, 2011 9:22 am

I recently scored a K120 that was in a 3x12 Hard Truckers cab and was reportedly in the Deads arsenal at some point in the WOS era, although it has either been re-coned or at least somebody replaced the dustcap.
Anyway... Here at the house it sounds killer running it as a single 12 in the top position of my verticle 2x12 cab, with one side of my MC250.
I like to play just loud enough that there are no ear-darts.
Something about the speaker itself (I A/B it with an E120 in the bottom position) and the Adamas pick (the Mac is a given), puts a little pepper on the accent notes in a Jerry fashion (to my ear).
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby zambiland » Tue May 17, 2011 12:16 am

I've been saying this for years. I've played with various guitar players who also work with this, but unfortunately, most of the rooms have been too small to really be comfortable with this technique. In fact, I end up feeling the guitar vibrating my Starfire bass more than my bass amp does. When that happens I know we're going to have the it's too loud conversation to no avail. However, it does create a tone and feel that just can't be had any other way. I don't think there's a good substitute for the actual level, where the clean sound can revibrate the string. Otherwise you are saturating various components, which might add some sustain, but it's really not the same thing at all.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby tigerstrat » Tue May 17, 2011 8:07 am

JamminJommy wrote:Lets keep in mind that the post WOS stuff was never on any stage smaller than say, the Great American Music Hall.


Let's make that Boston Music Hall... GAMH is way smaller than any of the WOS venues.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby ChiroVette » Tue May 17, 2011 10:17 am

One thing that I find helps a lot with my Twin Reverb that I put two JBL K-120s in is to use the lead channel and turn up the gain. The fact is that the JBLs simply will NOT distort at all no matter how much gain you use or how low you turn the master volume. But I get that "almost clipping" sound by turning up the gain, and the lower my stage volume needs to be (say in smaller clubs) the more gain I use. It isn't perfect, and the reality is that I believe I might end up taking one of the JBL's out of my rig for this very reason, but it does absolutely work. Also, and I know this is the painfully obvious point, make sure that you are using the middle coil AND that it is set to single coil. On my Rosebud copy, 99% of my sound is on that setting, which is very ironic considering that the way Jerry designed his guitars the sheer amount of sound and tones you can get from these beasts is staggering. Yet, his tone is almost always middle coil single pick up. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have always found that a bit strange.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Tue May 17, 2011 1:33 pm

One sort of related example is Trey. For years he's relied on a compressor pedal and a hollow guitar to allow for very easy feedback to happen at a reasonable volume. I had the great fortune to spend a soundcheck with him a while back when he bought his SMS preamp. I got to stand right there inside his zone and his stage volume is just beautiful, loud, but not at all too loud, and the guitar would almost always be in a constant state of feedback to some degree, even when pretty clean and soft. The notes just bloom after he pics them. But for Jerry to get that type of result with those heavy and dense guitars and with no compression obviously took quite a bit of SPL to get happening on any level. I do think this is why we saw Jer stand so close to his speakers. We should always aim our speakers at our gut where the guitar is and NEVER at our heads where we injure ourselves, and not at our ankles where we injure the people out front.

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Re: Loud Matters

Postby ChiroVette » Tue May 17, 2011 1:59 pm

Here are links to the Youtube videos of my band's show this past Saturday. You can hear the effect of playing with the gain on my sound. I am obviously playing the Jerry parts.

Oh and these are "videos" in name only. They were shot really for audio only on a Zoom H4.

One mistake I made was I was using the double coil (humbucker) from the end of Jack Straw through several songs. I kick in the humbucker for a distortion solo, and idiot that I am, forgot to turn it back to single coil for several tunes. But you can still hear the basic sound I am getting with my setup.

First Set


Second Set
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby TI4-1009 » Fri May 20, 2011 6:18 pm

Image
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby helio » Fri May 20, 2011 9:01 pm

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:One sort of related example is Trey. For years he's relied on a compressor pedal and a hollow guitar to allow for very easy feedback to happen at a reasonable volume. I had the great fortune to spend a soundcheck with him a while back when he bought his SMS preamp. I got to stand right there inside his zone and his stage volume is just beautiful, loud, but not at all too loud, and the guitar would almost always be in a constant state of feedback to some degree, even when pretty clean and soft. The notes just bloom after he pics them. But for Jerry to get that type of result with those heavy and dense guitars and with no compression obviously took quite a bit of SPL to get happening on any level. I do think this is why we saw Jer stand so close to his speakers. We should always aim our speakers at our gut where the guitar is and NEVER at our heads where we injure ourselves, and not at our ankles where we injure the people out front.

B


I'm a HUGE fan/student of this Trey method for really juicing he signal. The other element to this is running the OD... tubescreamer(s) in Trey's case... into the compressor (not compressor first, as most do). Really, really fattens up the saturation. Gives you the meat of the TS sound, with alot less gainy hair. And helps with that riding-the-edge-of-feedback thing. I play a semi-hollow with this setup (OD-->compressor... into an SMS CTP, as it happens :) ), and I have it where, with the OD on I almost have to have a hand on the strings at all times to tame the potential feedback. Love it. Like riding a wild bronco... but if you can control it, the bloomy, juiced tone that leaps out of the amp is just great. And the feedback that I do let through is that harmonically nice, in-tune type that can keep certain notes on the guitar riding on forever (think Phish's "Divided Sky") if you let them.

Sorry. Big Trey fan here, and this got me going.

For those with the Sarno CTP... another thing I've been goofing with is that output knob on the back of the SMS preamp. I've been riding that up higher and higher recently... up to about 10:30 or 11:00 now... and it really juices my Mesa 50/50 power amp really well. Not to the point of clipping. Just to the point of some really hot, liquid cleans. Same as above... notes want to bloom and leap out of the amp. Ahhh...
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby jx2638 » Sun May 22, 2011 7:50 am

And for god's sake, stand very near and directly in front of that speaker and blow it at your mid-back so you can feel it, the guitar can react, and mostly, you protect the audience (and soundman) from the laser beam of death that emits from the center of that speaker. Do this and the soundman may actually put you in the mix.
Brad[/quote]

Just played in a very tight-quartered room with a borrowed Vox AC30 2x12" (granted, much less juice than described above) on a barstool directly behind me and about mid-back high. The drummer was directly behind the barstool...no monitors, sound guy, etc. I could barely hear my guitar yet it came through ok (not great) on the Zoom that was out front. The rhythm's amp, a small Fender 1x10", was about 6'-7' feet behind me and seemed to cut through much better...I could hear him better than I could hear myself. What's the better play in this scenario to help cut through...is there a preferred distance from amp in a packed-tight bar room?
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby strumminsix » Sun May 22, 2011 10:55 am

jx2638 wrote: What's the better play in this scenario to help cut through...is there a preferred distance from amp in a packed-tight bar room?

Others will disagree. But I am in the camp of get your amp as far back from you as possible.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby Tennessee Jedi » Sun May 22, 2011 11:31 am

Tennessee Jedi wrote:" If it aint worth playing loud- it aint worth playing "
-Mickey Hart
or something like that ... cant find the pic right now
:D

TI4-1009 wrote:Image

I knew it was something like that
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby Capt Rosebuddy » Tue May 24, 2011 2:04 pm

Loud, and evidently with an entire saucer full of blow.

Yea I agree loud is great, but in practical terms its almost never fesible for me to play LOUD, without being evicted. So I pick my battles, I practice at night with my Blues Jr and during the day when everyone is at work, it goes to 11.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby bcresci » Tue May 24, 2011 4:06 pm

unnbrokenchain wrote:^^^ Joke?


Actually... no. This was first suggested to me by our soundman...and later I read about it on another board. Is putting a sheet of plexi in front of the cab a really bad idea?
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby Pete B. » Tue May 24, 2011 6:21 pm

You might try a Beam Blocker:
http://www.webervst.com/blocker.html
Image
Last edited by Pete B. on Wed May 25, 2011 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Loud Matters

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Tue May 24, 2011 7:40 pm

I gotta admit, I wasn't too impressed with the beam blocker when I saw it and read about it, thinking that it would cause some nasty reflections and weirdness. BUT, last week we played with a band and the guy had a Matchless amp with beam blockers over the 2 12" speakers, and it was very cool actually. Really good sound in all directions, no harsh beam. Quite impressed now.

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