Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:03 pm

Basically the typical (not Jerry's) Fender amp setting has a bass hump, a midrange dip, and a treble hump. This midrange dip has a center frequency that can range from around 300Hz up to 900Hz. It's a huge range that drastically changes the color and character of the midrange tone. The midrange knob has zero effect on this frequency. It only alters the amount of dip. Fenders with no mid knob have a fixed resistor of 6.8k, a pre-determined amount of dip that equates roughly to about a setting of 8 on a Twin.

But as you turn up the treble knob, the center frequency of the midrange dip goes lower in frequency, making the overall tone clear and un-clouded. So not only are you getting more treble, but you're shifting the dip frequency down to remove the low cloudy mids. As you turn down the treble, this midrange dip frequency rolls upward in frequency giving you more low mids, more of that warm, cloudy stuff.

With the Jerry setting of treble on 10, that is the most extreme amount of treble and also the most extreme shift of the midrange dip down to or below 300 Hz basically removing much of the warm cloudy midrange. Now to add insult to injury, Jerry also dumped all his bass, so basically his tone is ALL treble with no rise in the bass region, a big slope upward toward the treble, not a smiley face like a Fender normally does with normal settings. But, the character and midrange content of this all-treble Jerry sound will change as you turn down the treble knob.

B
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby tcsned » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:09 pm

thanks Brad! I never knew exactly how that worked. You are a veritable wealth of knowledge :hail:
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby tapestry » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:07 pm

Great information!
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby waldo041 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:52 pm

Image

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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:03 pm

Thanks Waldo.

The orange and green curves help best at illustrating how the midrange dip frequency scoots left and right in response to the treble knob.

And everyone dig that red curve. That's Jerry. Tightened low bass roll-off (compared to the light blue), basically a giant treble booster with sweet hi-fi tubey and Mac and JBL fidelity. A dangerous weapon in the wrong hands. A cosmic soul healing scalpel in Jerry's...

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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby jdsmodulus » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:06 pm

Best posts ever!! I have no clue what your talking about...but I like it. Mayb e someday I'll stop playing this guitar and figure it out! :cool:
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby jenkins » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:27 am

One thing to remember is the room always affects the tone. At home with carpets n shit in the room I gotta crank my highs to get that Jerry tone. I'll run bass-2mid-10 treb-9 and it sound great but if I leave that setting at the bar it will be piercing, particularly if the room has hardwood floors. Generally at gigs I'll turn the highs down to about 6 or 7 & then even bring my bass up to 4 or 5 max depending on the room. I always leave my highs up at 10.
Every room is different and every room reflects sound differently. Different frequencies r accented depending on the surfaces & how full the room is. Some rooms reflect more highs and some reflect more bass. Amps always need to b tweaked for each room. This needs to b done for good tone. Often i even have to tweak once the room fills up. I find I will usually turn the highs down more during sound check & once the room fills I'll bring em back up to about 8.
IMO one of the keys to getting Jerry tone is getting those settings just right. It's is a balancing act between killer highs and ear piercing highs. Jerry was a master of finding that sweet spot of cranking the highs to right before it hurt your ears. Finding that sweetspot can b tough & in some rooms really tough.
These are settings that should b set on your amp not your guitar. The amp should b set to the room and your tone knob should b more for shaping your tone for different effects and songs. Theoretically your to e knob all the way io would b right to that sweet spot, then you roll off your highs to get different tones from your guitar. Your ears shouldn't hurt bc u have your tone knob at 10, you def shouldn't have your tone knob at 8 because it'll hurt your ears if you turn it to 10.
Idk but I think it's a good idea to listen to the audience if they r telling you it hurts their ears. There's nothing worse than a really loud band that sounds like shit. I've seen so many bands that were really good players but I couldn't even stay because the sound quality was bad & it hurt my ears. Nobody wants to listen to something that hurts.
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby JonnyBoy » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:46 pm

Just for fun here, help me understand the y and x axis values. This graph is saying at Jerry settings virtually eliminates a midrange dip and at the same time, its eliminating the low end and pumping the high end? Also, Jerry modifications are further straightening the curve, primarily in the low end? That means there is barely any bass in the sound at all... One question I have which may change the approach I have in my tone, as a 3 piece band (guitar, bass and drums) would it be better for me to bring the bass up some as to have a more full overall band sound? I would think lacking keys and Bobby guitar, My guitar is not filling in the right spots frequency wise for a full sound... hmmmm,
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby mijknahs » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:26 pm

JonnyBoy wrote:Just for fun here, help me understand the y and x axis values. This graph is saying at Jerry settings virtually eliminates a midrange dip and at the same time, its eliminating the low end and pumping the high end? Also, Jerry modifications are further straightening the curve, primarily in the low end? That means there is barely any bass in the sound at all... One question I have which may change the approach I have in my tone, as a 3 piece band (guitar, bass and drums) would it be better for me to bring the bass up some as to have a more full overall band sound? I would think lacking keys and Bobby guitar, My guitar is not filling in the right spots frequency wise for a full sound... hmmmm,


It's pretty challenging to play GD tunes with just a trio. Keys really add a lot. If you only have a trio to work with, you might tame the sound a bit by rolling off some of the highs and also get a little more dirty/overdriven. Just an idea.
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby JonnyBoy » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:00 pm

mijknahs wrote:
JonnyBoy wrote:Just for fun here, help me understand the y and x axis values. This graph is saying at Jerry settings virtually eliminates a midrange dip and at the same time, its eliminating the low end and pumping the high end? Also, Jerry modifications are further straightening the curve, primarily in the low end? That means there is barely any bass in the sound at all... One question I have which may change the approach I have in my tone, as a 3 piece band (guitar, bass and drums) would it be better for me to bring the bass up some as to have a more full overall band sound? I would think lacking keys and Bobby guitar, My guitar is not filling in the right spots frequency wise for a full sound... hmmmm,


It's pretty challenging to play GD tunes with just a trio. Keys really add a lot. If you only have a trio to work with, you might tame the sound a bit by rolling off some of the highs and also get a little more dirty/overdriven. Just an idea.



yes, i have been working with a new OD that has a great dynamic range and active EQ section. It has helped round out the sound the few times I have used it. I didn't get it for that specifically, but last night I used it as a boost at first, then turned it down a hair and left it on. Much better sound IMO. The guys in my band are kinda minimalist, so they think my GAS is silly and any more "tonal devices" are just not needed. Thus, asking if something sounds better or worse with a new pedal can be a loaded question... :roll:

I also use a looper to help out in specific jams and such,,, but that is like tap dancing while juggling chainsaws. We have been doing it a long time now, we've got pretty good at it. We hope for a 4th but not many heads this side of the line, plus the ability factor comes into play with these multi chord multi part songs as well as we want to perform them. We rehearse 2 times a week without fail, that is a turn off to some too, these aren't 3 chord blues tunes anyone can sit in on. There is a key player that wants to sit in with us, but he is in a successful band, so we get whatever time he has left and as of yet have not had time for him to sit in. We will keep on keeping on until it happens and comes together...
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby jenkins » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:45 pm

Great info waldo and thanks brad for translating that graph, i wasn't quite sure what It meant until i read your post.
So jerry always kept his bass set on 0? Im pretty certain he never really turned up his bass but Do you know if he ever turned it up just a little, like to 1 or something?
Do you know when he was using the mesa if he also had the bass at zero?
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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby waldo041 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:00 pm

jenkins wrote:Great info waldo and thanks brad for translating that graph, i wasn't quite sure what It meant until i read your post.
So jerry always kept his bass set on 0? Im pretty certain he never really turned up his bass but Do you know if he ever turned it up just a little, like to 1 or something?
Do you know when he was using the mesa if he also had the bass at zero?


jerry stated directly to a friend when asked if he even opened or cracked the bass pot at all, and the answer was NO. he said it was the wrong kind of bass, too woofy. he also stated the same thing to kimock, and told steve that the mid pot was his bass pot.

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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby mijknahs » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:25 pm

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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby waldo041 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:16 am

mijknahs wrote:I wonder why both preamps have cables in them?


they don't! the blackface appears to but if you zoom out of that picture you will find that is the counter weight on the end of a mic boomstand, and not a cable. :lol:

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Re: Live Jerry Tone Too Bright?

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:22 am

Keep in mind that these settings of Jerry's with the bass on zero also correspond to the natural fatness and voicing of his big 3-12" cabinet and with that exact distance from the floor. If you use a different or smaller cabinet and place it further from the floor, you actually may need to add a hair of bass, maybe a higher midrange setting or maybe just slightly less treble to compensate and get the real Jerry tone. I find that these Jerry settings into a smaller 1-12" cab are too thin and don't have the body in the sound, although it helps if the cab is on the floor and tilted up a bit. Floor coupling can NOT be overlooked as it has a tremendous effect on bass response of a cabinet. Jerry's tone, to my ears, actually balanced out beautifully with his seemingly "thin" settings. Very clear, plenty of warmth and fullness, and no loose low mud. But the cabinet is a KEY factor in the final result, especially in the lower mid and bass frequency range.

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