so in the list of scales...

so in the list of scales...

Postby caspersvapors » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:47 pm

it says to use E pent blues/minor, but Im almost positive he just played it in A major
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Postby spilly » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:00 pm

the 2 scales aren't that different. take away the F#, C#, and G# from A maj, Add G to the remaining notes and you have Em pen, add A# to that and you have E blues
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Postby tigerstrat » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:17 am

The song would be pretty hard to play w/o the C#, F# and G#, wouldn't it? And I don't see A# as a scale step either. Reviewing the list entry, why would this song be referred to as in E? What are the chords- Bm(ii), A(I), E(V), C#m(iii), D(IV) and G(common vii substitution)- the song is in A maj.
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Postby Billbbill » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:33 pm

While I'm betting tiger is right (seeing as I'm basically a technidiot) I think spilly does highlight a good point.

The Em pentatonic (or blues) scale works well over the drawn out E chord at the end of the second half of the progression (when it doesn't go back to the A). There's a lot of room there for some nasty edges.

Any more than that and you would lose the chord resonance of the C#, F#, and G# found when playin over the A and Bm.

Like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Similarly one could get away with some B blues licks over the Bm as all the notes are covered within the A maj scale.

While there was a time when I wanted to just know the key and go, I discovered that for it to sound the way I wanted it to (or at least begin to) I had to peel back the layers of chord changes and incorporate that mindset into my lead ideas. It certainly opened my eyes to some things.

I suppose this is somewhat of a reference to modes?
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Postby caspersvapors » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:34 pm

yeah i was kinda confused lol

who compiled that list anyway?
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Postby jck_strw » Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:06 pm

Billbbill wrote:While there was a time when I wanted to just know the key and go, I discovered that for it to sound the way I wanted it to (or at least begin to) I had to peel back the layers of chord changes and incorporate that mindset into my lead ideas. It certainly opened my eyes to some things.


Bill--is this what is referred to as playing through the changes (as opposed to playing over the changes)? I believe it was strumminsix that first pointed this out to me.
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Postby Billbbill » Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:48 pm

I'm not sure I get the distinction between 'through' and 'over' jack. When I use the term 'over' I mean while that chord is being played.

If through infers having lead phrases transcend chord changes I'm all for that.

In no way would I be inferring when to begin or end lead phrases as that would be a matter of taste and intent.

My main point is to be aware of the chord being played while playin lead, as to truly stretch the tao's I feel you need to have the lead resonate with the chords. Not necessarily all the time, but at varying points depending on how you structure your lead and what you're trying to do.
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Althea scales

Postby RichSpaulding » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:47 am

I think of the song in E mixolydian, which has the same notes as A major since E is the V chord in A major. The E mixolydian scale is just like the E major scale except that is has a flat seventh (D natural). The song seems to resolve to E in my view, while A acts more like a IV chord. A major gives you all the right notes though.
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Postby jck_strw » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:25 pm

Billbbill wrote:I'm not sure I get the distinction between 'through' and 'over' jack. When I use the term 'over' I mean while that chord is being played.

If through infers having lead phrases transcend chord changes I'm all for that.

In no way would I be inferring when to begin or end lead phrases as that would be a matter of taste and intent.

My main point is to be aware of the chord being played while playin lead, as to truly stretch the tao's I feel you need to have the lead resonate with the chords. Not necessarily all the time, but at varying points depending on how you structure your lead and what you're trying to do.


Bill

I guess I was thinking of this--if the song is in E, you can play some E-based scale (mixolydian, etc.) throughout. Or, you can play an E-based scale during the E chord, an A-based scale during the A-chord, and then a B-based scale during the B-chord. I was wondering if perhaps you were initially playing in the first manner, as opposed to the second manner. Just sorta thinking out loud.
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Postby Billbbill » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:26 pm

If you mean when I initially began playing leads it would be the former. Now it's the latter although I have to stress that except for the g note in Em pentatonic (the blue note), they're all the same notes. It's really about thinking somewhat differently.

A Ionian--------- a b c# d e f# g# a
E Mixolydian---------------e f# g# a b c# d e
B Dorian ?----------b c# d e f# g# a b
Em Pent (blues)------------e g-----a b----d e
Bm Pent (blues)-----b----d e f#----a b

Especially the notes that form the chords. Not only beginning and resolving lead lines with these notes, but 'acknowledging' them along the way.

Think of the intro for the song as embodying this concept to the extreme; Basically finger (or flat) picking the notes of the chords (almost exclusively)to form a melodic line.

My thinking for lead playing has evolved toward this approach from when I first started playing which was when I just wanted to know the scale and I'd be off to some good things from time to time but often I'd end up at Noodle City. I think this thinking has given my lead playing more depth.

Does this make any sense to you? Anyone? Or am I off in my own little private world - again.

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Postby wisedyes » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:02 am

I have always treated it as A Major ( or, technically, B Dorian and A Ionian ) over the B minor and A Major chords, and then E Major over the E. Since the E chord is not E7, but rather E major, I see this as a key change to the key of E, therefore, to my ears, E Mixolydian doesn't work too well over it, because of the D natural instead of having a D# in the scale.
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verse and bridge

Postby Mark1 » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:09 pm

I'm going off of "Without a Net" version:

So, I've been playing the intro lick all the way through to the "I told Althea the treachery..." part, then strumming. But it sounds like Jerry picks all the way through. What's the consensus on that? Also, he's doing a bit of filling in between "...limb from limb" and "Althea told me..." that I've been fiddling with but haven't come to a conclusion about.

Billbill, I'd love to see what you have for the whole verse and the bridge, if you would be so inclined?

Thanks to everybody!
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Postby Billbbill » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:34 am

Without listening to that particular version here's what I work from.


---------I.....Althea......feelin..lost
-------Bm--------A---------E--------A
e-----------------------------------
b--------------3---------2-------------
g-----------4--------2-----------1----
d---------4----4---2-----2--2-2--2----2-
a---0-1-2--------0------------------0----
E-4----------2---------0---0---0--------

-------------Lackin......direction-------OR
-------Bm--------A--------E------------|-E------
e--------------------------------------|-------
b--------------3--------2--------------|-------
g-----------4--------2----------1------|--1-2-0h1---1
d---------4----4---2----2--2-2--2--2-2-|--2-2-----2-2
a---0-1-2--------0---------------------|-----------
E-4----------2--------0---0---0---0----|-0---------0


Repeat for 'Althea told...' and "Back might..."

To bridge

---------I told.........treachery....was
--------A--------------C#m
e----------------------------------
b----------2-------2-------5-------5---
g----------2-------2-------6-------6---
d---------2---2---2---2---6---6---6---6---
a-------0-------0-------4-------4-----
E-0-2-4-----0-------0-------4-------4----


-----tearin me...limb from limb
----D-----------------A
e---------------------------------
b-------7-------7-----------------
g-------7-------7-------2----2----
d------7---7---7---7---22----2----
a----5-------5--------0------0----
E--------5-------5--------0-------

---------------Althea told........cool
------------C#m---------------E
e----------------------------------
b---------------5-------5------------
g---------------6-------6-----------1----
d------2-1-0---6---6---6---6---2-2--2---2-
a(0)-(2)-(3)-4-------4-------------------
E----------------4-------4----0---0---0-


---------Settle back...
-------Bm-------A--------E--
e----------------------------------
b----------3----2-3-2-----------------
g------------4--2-2-2-0h1--1-2-0h1--1-
d---------4---4----------2-2-2----2-2-
a---0-1-2-------0---------------------
E-4---------2-------0-----0--0-----0--

I show the alternating bass line in the last segment above. I don't show that on my thread with the intro although I mention it as an alternative. I'm also not too sure whether or not jer would play this riff while singing the last line. A quick look at some of my different versions don't have it. I put it in anyway. Without the riff it would pretty much mimic the end of verse segment. It's also not the easiest thing to sing and play at the same time.

Depending on whether you do a quicker or slower bass line walkup you can fit more or less in before starting the next sequence.

This is all basic finger picking stuff, although I flat, middle and index finger pick the whole thing.

jg messed around with this, often changing things up here and there.

I show both of the 1/2 phrase E endings, the picking out the E chord and the little hammer riff, because jg did both in various ways through the years. I've heard versions with it mixed and some where it seemed like the hammer riff ended every E phrase.

Hopefully this'll get you started.
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Thanks!

Postby Mark1 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:05 pm

Thanks for taking the time, Billbill!

One more thing that's kind of general... I'm trying to pick a tune... and I've got the treble or main riff or whatever you want to call it. Are there any helpful hints for making the bass to go along with it? So, far its been kind of a guessing game... trial and error. I've drawn out the tab too. But, for example if I have a song in the key of G, could the bass be any note for that key at any particular time? Thanks again!
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Postby Billbbill » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:12 pm

Trial and error is the usual path, but with some direction. I'd say first what key are you playing? Does the key change? Are you leaning toward any specific scale tendencies?

These are rhetorical questions, btw, that you need to ask youself.

Check out tonal qualities of chords in your progression. The notes that make up the chords are often featured prominently in bass lines.

There are some well worn bass lines that are often recycled in one form or another, look at some of them for ideas. Say Needle and The Damage Done by Neil Young for instance. I'm not telling you to copy them as much as to take a look at them. Some doors may open. Check out the relation of the bass notes to the chord being played over.

Maybe some others, say maybe even some bass players could chime in.

Of course the final test as always is--How does it sound?
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