Like it or hate it?

Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby FretWilkes » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:26 am

Not one of my favorite Weir tunes, but I do enjoy Jerry's maniacal approach.

I've got an intersting acoustic version with Weir and Wasserman from the old "Night Music" tv show hosted by David Sanborn.
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby jeffm725 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:46 pm

In my opinion Victim was unique because it was a song that DEVOLVED over time. Most Dead songs got better with age. Not Victim

Again, this is my opinion but I personally much preferred the very early versions (summer of 88) to the what victim eventually became.

To me, after 89, Victim just was TOO much of everything. Too many effects, too over-arranged, just generally overdone in every which way instrumentally. Jerry was too saturated, Bobby was too angular, it just became a mess.

My favorite victim ever is the second one they ever did, in Alpine Valley 6/20/88. They opened the second set with it, and it was powerful. Mickey and Billy were just nailing the floor tom on the backbeat which gave it a wicked, driving feel. Jerry is on top of his game here too, but not over the top. He gets some trey-like sustain happening. Definitely my favorite Victim. I wish is stayed like this.

Check it out:

6/20/88:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd88-06- ... sbeok.shnf
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby strumminsix » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:16 pm

Okay, I'm gonna say it...

The good or bad of Victim was strongly in Jerry's hands. If he was off, the whole mutha fucking song fell apart.

Jeff, I listened to your version and quickly shut it off after Jerry fucked up the first run up. It kills it.

I do agree the song eventually became over processed and lost it's primal energy that I am very much a fan of.

Sadly, I think "Victim dislike" is more of a result of it being a freakin' trainwreck waaaay more often than masterpiece.


On XM they just played the studio version. While it's a bit "polite" it's performed flawlessly and hearing the band break scores (pun intended) of composition rules and break every norm the ear predicts and still sound so cohesive is just marvelous.
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby Lunchbox16 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:25 pm

I find this kind of interesting because when I was first getting into the Dead and listened to Without A Net, Victim was one of my favorite tunes. Over the years, it's become a song that I regularly skip. Although someone posted an acoustic version of Victim from 85 or 86 I think it was, a few months ago, and that was pretty bad ass. In general, I am apt to agree with jeffm725 in a way, in that the more I listened to the song (i.e. more recent iterations) the less I liked it. Different strokes for different folks though!
"Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir." Time is a great storyteller. -- Irish Proverb
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby strumminsix » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:41 pm

Lunchbox16 wrote: I am apt to agree with jeffm725 in a way, in that the more I listened to the song (i.e. more recent iterations) the less I liked it.

That's not what Jeff said. He didn't like what the song evolved into. It was my understanding he likes listening to the early version but the later ones did nothing for him.
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby DeadlyHeptet » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:48 pm

Great tune. I only became aware of it well after Without A Net came out. That particular version just blew me away. One of their darker tunes and I love dark. Jerry's use of a phaser is probably one of my least favorite tones he uses though.
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby gr8fulbluz » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:18 pm

i remember victim or the kind, kinda, getting old in the 90s, I don't know why i feel that way. I remember Oxford and Bayfront St Pete in '88 it was still new and i wasn't into it. But it grew on me. And by the time Oct 1989 Miami show I liked it alot. Freaky DarkStar show that Miami was. :twisted:
But then it seemed to get alot of play in the rotation and got old for me. eh.
Good heavns, I will have to give a listen to 'without a net' it has been a while. cool.
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby bodiddley » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:46 pm

I never cared for it much live because it was so dark and I'd rather have gotten something perhaps a bit cheerier...like Dark Star! But I really like listening to different recorded versions. Always loved when "Foolish" would bubble up out of it. I mostly appreciatte it for the same reason I like "Esau" so much...they sound like no other songs on Earth and musically seem like they shouldn't work, but do.
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby strumminsix » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:05 pm

bodiddley wrote:I mostly appreciatte it for the same reason I like "Esau" so much...they sound like no other songs on Earth and musically seem like they shouldn't work, but do.


YES! Esau breaks less rules but still ya look at the chords and go, "okay, if you say so"!!!


Furthering the correlation (read it JEFF!) between Esau and Victim... BOTH got over-processed. The first year of Esau it was RAW ENERGY! Then they inserted the BIG 80s INTRO, changed lyrics, put Phil lower in the mix and it was just too refined for my tastes.
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Re: Like it or hate it?

Postby jeffm725 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:23 pm

strumminsix wrote:Okay, I'm gonna say it...

The good or bad of Victim was strongly in Jerry's hands. If he was off, the whole mutha fucking song fell apart.

Jeff, I listened to your version and quickly shut it off after Jerry fucked up the first run up. It kills it.

I do agree the song eventually became over processed and lost it's primal energy that I am very much a fan of.

Sadly, I think "Victim dislike" is more of a result of it being a freakin' trainwreck waaaay more often than masterpiece.


On XM they just played the studio version. While it's a bit "polite" it's performed flawlessly and hearing the band break scores (pun intended) of composition rules and break every norm the ear predicts and still sound so cohesive is just marvelous.

HaHa strummin, Jerry does have a good big flub there, but you should really give the rest of it a chance, he really recovers nicely.
Primal Energy is a good description.
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