Groove Tubes Trio preamp

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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby playingdead » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:45 pm

Just for laughs, I just did a little experimentig ... as I am prone to do. Being all digital as I am now :shock:

Here's my Tiger guitar into my AxeFX Garcia preset using the custom IR I made of my JBL E-120s, intro to Althea and a solo lick, middle pickup, single coil. Excuse the buzz, having ground issues here today. And the low levels.

http://playingdead.net/althea1.wav

Here's the Tiger the same way, but minus the cabinet block with the E-120s. It's a lot hissier, but you can hear what the absence of the cabinet shaping does to the sound.

http://playingdead.net/althea2.wav

Now, here's the Tiger with the middle and neck pickup together, single coil. I usually think I can hear Jerry using more in-between sounds in that era, although I seldom listen, it makes me sad to hear him fumbling for notes.

http://playingdead.net/althea3.wav

My guess is, from experimenting a bit with my own band's multitrack mixes, that a very bright guitar sound like this is going to cut a lot better through the in-ear mix. Plus, his high hearing was probably pretty shot, so it might not have sounded so bright to him. And, since the speaker simulation technology was in its infancy at that point, those Microcab boxes didn't really sound very good (I had an old one).
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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby playingdead » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Well ... and here's ol' Jerry, June 94, Althea intro ...

http://playingdead.net/jerry94althea.wav

Compare to:

http://playingdead.net/althea6.wav

I think they are pretty close.
Last edited by playingdead on Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:01 pm

I recall at the time, maybe '93 or '94, can't remember, but I was quite sure I was hearing the Christian piezo bridge tone on certain songs, the more folksy ones. We were even talking about it at the time because the Christian piezo saddles were sort of a new and interesting product. But I can't confirm nor deny the fact of the matter, I just recall distinctly thinking I was hearing it, and even at shows where he had that crispy (awful) direct electric Trio tone with all those tweetery highs, I could swear that some songs had even more crispies, a more piezo pickup tone. I think much of the confusion comes from the fact that the guitar direct from the Trio to the PA, without miking a guitar speaker, naturally had a bunch of crispy highs that some people will mistake for the piezo tone. But I do recall at the time being able to make the distinction between the crispy direct Dimarzio tone on some songs in a given show and what I thought was a piezo tone on other tunes. I didn't care for either to say the least. Maybe we can pull up more examples from that period. I was thinking it was a FOTD or Peggy-O or something like that when I was sure at the time it was the piezos and not just the crispy direct DiMarzio tone. If Jerry did do it temporarily, I can see why it was temporary.

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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby JonnyBoy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:29 pm

I comes to a debate between The man that I thought was extremely close to Jerry's electronic work saying, "Never put them on, though there was a scheme to do it, but it was never done because he died soon after." Then, the guitars themselves, Waldo got to comb through with microscopes, to bring back the holy grail of info about its exact wiring for our reference here and on his site, He saw no sign of them, not even removal scars, and Waldo sure would have noticed things like that. He spent hours looking over his individual solder joints. The guitars present keepers insist the guitars have been untouched,In terms of upgrades/downgrades, since his death.
These are the questions that run through this curious mind of mine:

1. If he did have piezo's, who would have done the work, and then removed them too without his techs, people, roadies ever knowing they existed? Even if he didn't use them anymore after trying them, he'd keep them installed I would think, unless the saddles themselves really did something to the tone, and some of the men above would have heard his approval, gripes and moans about them. Plus they would have to know about them due to EQ and board levels.
2. If they were used what would be the point in the people closest to Jerry keeping that a secret from us, (that's possible since they won't let us see cripe's scheme)?
3. In the end we all know there are a thousand ways to duplicate tones, and get real close, even by accident (how did i do that?). And we all know our ears are the easiest sense to trick our minds, then our eyes. Just like the nurse that swore Jerry wasn't that high when he checked into rehab.

I hate to see us divided about this, but it would seem from the factual information, that the sound came from some accidental "acoustic simulation" due to the way Jerry hooked up to the system then amplified his signal, however that happened. I would think if he experimented with the bridge saddles, there would be pictures to show that, and I have been looking. I hope we can find some to get this nailed down. A lot of the men that have shared here are extremely close to the epicenter of knowledge, its funny we don't know this fact for sure.

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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby Chuckles » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:40 pm

I'm liking the theory of a little something being added via MIDI...
Seems like I've been here before...

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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby JonnyBoy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:11 pm

John K needs to ask Bob and Phil next time he sees them... :lol: If they freaking remember!!! They are bad about sayin that,,,,

here is a youtube video check 3:25 there might be something to the 4 wires and the saddles

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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:29 pm

I think Gary Brawer did ALL that guitar electronic work for Jer' during that period, and Gary has confirmed for Waldo that he never installed the Christian piezo saddles. Maybe there was a midi thing? I don't know. Maybe Jerry just brightened his guitar tone up all the way and that thru the direct setup gave the piezo impression. It seems that Brawer would know this kind of stuff. He printed me a schematic of Jerry's wiring back about 13 years ago when I was in SF. It was kind of scribbly computer graphics, like he drew it with a mouse. Generally, Jerry's guitar wiring seemed pretty fresh in his head. What I do know is that when I heard that crispy direct Jerry sound without a JBL speaker, I was very sad. I thought it was the worst tone direction he ever went. Still do. I honestly can't listen to those shows, and there are good moments here and there.


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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby Chuckles » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:55 pm

^^^ Yeah, that.
Seems like I've been here before...

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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby FretWilkes » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:08 am

JonnyBoy wrote:


I feel for those that love the Dead, but only saw them during this period. "The train's done left the station".

Interesting tone on Vince's part as well. :shock: Vince? Nah.

YUK.

It's a fun debate to read about, but these tones are to be run away from!
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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby keirweir » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:42 am

This screams Piezo to me... Gotta love Jer jamming on while Bob fixes his rig durring the 2nd jam in Jack Straw... This is Jerry at his BEST in the 90's in my opinion but I always thought he had the Piezo in the Bolt. The Bertha solo sounds like an accoustic

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1993-08-22.mtx.hansokolow.98235.flac16
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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby waldo041 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:50 am

the 4th wire is not for a Piezo! it is for the IN-EAR monitor Jerry Used.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby keirweir » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:51 am

Whats with the aqua blue sweats in the second photo...
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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby jdsmodulus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:07 am

So lets discuss those extra cables, I have seen many pics of those. One looks like it goes to the guitar and one to the ear. Back then I guess the ear buds were wired? I forget but it seems they always were messing with those. In the last photo it seems he had 2 boxes. Could this be something we dont know about? Also Weir had several boxes taped to his strap during this period, so wireless guitar, IEM, then ? thanks.

Cool pics by the way.
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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby waldo041 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:35 am

jdsmodulus wrote:So lets discuss those extra cables, I have seen many pics of those. One looks like it goes to the guitar and one to the ear. Back then I guess the ear buds were wired? I forget but it seems they always were messing with those. In the last photo it seems he had 2 boxes. Could this be something we dont know about? Also Weir had several boxes taped to his strap during this period, so wireless guitar, IEM, then ? thanks.

Cool pics by the way.


yes, the in ear was wired at first. then the second box jerry gets back there is the wireless unit. this is primitive technology that was just coming to fruition in those days.

and to touch on the midi piezo idea, while it is possible, not likely as it had it's own rig with it's own amp and floor monitors. it was completely seperate from the guitar side and could be used by itself or with the guitar at the same time. he didn't use the rolands mix or seperate switching capabilites of that unit. they were 2 seperate signals.

as for the other wires hanging off jerry's guitars. if you look at the 2nd picture on the top left, in front of the red cup you will see jerrys line switching tuner bypass box. the center orange plug comes from the guitar output. then the little cable on the right plugs into the tuner, and the blue cable on the left plugs into the TRIO. the orange effects loop cable plugs into the effects switcher about halfway in the rack. the midi cable goes to the midi rig in the rack to the right of the main rack. this can be seen in all pictures of the rack from the 90's with it it in view. he had the same thing going on since the seventies. so the 4 cables hanging off hof him are 1.) in ear monitor, 2.) "Orange" guitar output(to the tuner switcher) 3.) "Orange" OBEL Cable 4.) "Black" MIDI cable to it's own Midi rig rack.


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Re: Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Postby jdsmodulus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:43 am

Thanks for clearing that up, I thought that was the setup...now to get mine running like that. LOL!
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