Question about using Modal Scales

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby cunamara » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:59 pm

Ah, crap, I screwed it up:

"Respectively, that would be in the B Dorian, B Lydian and B Aeolian modes."

D'oh! Since I was talking about an A minor chord, that should have been A Dorian, A Phrygian and A Aeolian. Geez, it'll make NO sense at all if I screw up the basics like that! Sorry, man. Good grief.

Here's a mnemonic to help remember the names of the modes: I Don't Play Like My Aunt Lucy (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian). These are respectively the I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi and vii of the major key (capitals being major chords and lower case being minor chords).
cunamara
Rosebud
Rosebud
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:06 pm

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby lyghtningod » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:26 am

Here's one more way to look at modes

Each of the scales flats one tone as it moves down the list
The first three are majors scales, the last four are minor

Lydian C D E F# G A B C
Ionian C D E F G A B C
Mixolydian C D E F G A Bb C

Dorian C D Eb F G A Bb C
Aeolian C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
Phrygian C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Locrian C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
lyghtningod
Aoxomoxoa
Aoxomoxoa
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:04 am

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby Poor Peter » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm

Arpeggio's brother... Everything above is sage advice. The modes are a fantastic tool for jamming. However, the use of arpeggio's in Garcia's playing cannot be understated. Ever wonder how Jerry always found his way back home? How he could rip out single lines over the many quick moving chord changes on a tune like Deal? That always made sense? He knew the arpeggio's inside and out. He never got lost (in general) because he always knew where the root, the third, the fifth and when appropriate, the seventh were. Someone mentioned jamming to "Eyes". E ionian and B dorian are great places to start, but Jerry rarely hung just inside the mode. Listen to the beginning of "Eyes" from 3-31-90. Greensboro, N.C. Maybe it's '91 ( the 25 min. marathon) It is riddled with the use of arpeggios, not to mention chromatics, the occasional pentatonic. He stops and starts on just about every degree of the scale. Scarlet Begonias, Sugaree, Tenn. Jed Deal, ect. ect. All are full of the use of arpeggios. .. Any chord can be played in any position. Learn them all, (reasonably) all the way up the neck, picking out the arpeggio. From there you can begin to incorporate the modes. This will help you be able to assimilate yourself into many situations, as well as ward off those doldrums of getting hung up in one particular scale. That muscle memoryscale that after a while makes you think you are just doing the same riffs over and over again with little variation. Burning through scales. We've all been there. Once those are burned into your brain you will begin to play instinctively, feeling the interval instead of having to think about it. Maybe I am way off the topic from the initial post but I thought I'd throw my two cents in. I prowl this board all the time with little to say. Arpeggios should be the building blocks for anyone who aspires to emulate Jerry.
Poor Peter
Terrapin
Terrapin
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby waldo041 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:11 pm

good stuff, thanks pete. :cool:

peace,
waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
User avatar
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2826
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby DenverEd » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:19 am

I agree with Pete. On the other hand, just memorizing the major and minor arpeggios in every shape is a huge undertaking. Then being able to access them on the fly is yet another donkey kong level.
DenverEd
Steal Your Face
Steal Your Face
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Beautiful Colorado

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby jackr » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:38 am

Nicely said Peter.

There is a huge amount of practicing to get to that point. Literally thousands of hours I would think. Learning all of the scales, modes and arpeggios is a difficult undertaking enough but putting it altogether on the fly is mind boggling. I am sure it is worth it. Although I am certainly not there, I am enjoying getting there. They say "the joy is in the journey" And you know "they" are never wrong.

Since I mentioned practicing I will just share something I share with my students about practicing that I heard from Larry Carlton. That is, when you are hanging around watching TV keep a guitar in your hands. You will tinker with it. You wont be able to help it. During those times, do fingering exercises, run scales, arpeggios etc.

I usually watch an hour or so of tv a day, so I just keep my electric guitar unplugged on my lap. (that is in addition to my regular daily practice, not in lieu of!)
On tour '76 - '81
Clean & Sober since '87
User avatar
jackr
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 1:16 pm
Location: Wellington Florida

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:04 pm

Arpeggios are hugely important in playing jazz walking lines, and also for playing Phil. I can't speak about playing Jerry but Peter's post makes a lot of sense to me.

I personally don't really separate them from scales, however... I just think of them as the 3 or 4 most important notes within each scale. I see each scale as a hierarchy of tones - the most important is the root, the second most important of most scales is the 3rd, then either the 5th or 7th depending on function, then the 9th and 6th, and the 4th is usually to be avoided since it can be harmonically misleading. The more you stick to the basic arpeggios, the more strongly you establish the base harmony. The more you leave it, the further outside your playing sounds. You can go as far as playing notes that are not within the scale, or take it a step further and play scales and arpeggios that are not the ones of the current chord - this can be especially effective if you're playing over something like a V7 and you resolve it back to I... all tension notes can be acceptable if you resolve them properly and it's fun to yank the listener's ears around and then bring them back home.


I'll also think of the function of the chords to decide how much to emphasize what part of the arpeggio - in something like Cassidy where it changes to E major and A Major to E minor and A minor, I'll always emphasize the 3rds to make that change more obvious. Then I'll play with that F#m-AMajor change that really isn't a change since the scales are exactly the same - that's when changing arpeggios within one scale can make all the difference. The music theory behind the song goes well with the whole Birth/Death dichotomy of the lyrics so I like to really bring it out.
User avatar
Rusty the Scoob
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:28 am
Location: Concord, MA

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby Poor Peter » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:14 pm

Right on Rusty. You know what I am talking about. Denver Ed an Jackr it is nowhere near as intimidating as you might think. You already know all of the chords in the first position. You probably know that they can be moved anywhere on the neck. First position E chord slid up a 1/2 step gives you the F, a whole step to G and so on all the way up the neck to the 12th fret where it repeats itself. Those are your arpeggios.

Now, break it down. Grab that G chord on the third fret. ( Try to use your thumb to grab that root on the sixth string, you will get alot more mileage in your playing that way. Trust me.) Now just focus on that box. Learn the pentatonic that fits over that chord shape. Then you can add the fourth and the seventh and you have your Ionian mode. Start on the 5th and there is your mixolydian. Learn everything you can stuff into that box. Even the different chords. Gmaj, min. maj 7th, dom 7th. and so on. Then move up to the next position where you find the next G chord. It is the D position on the 7th fret down to the root that is on the 5th fret. Thats a tough chord to grab if you want to add the root, but we are not concerned about that. Just recognize that box that extends from the 5th to the 7th fret. Again, learn the pentatonic that fists in there. Then move up to the seventh fret. C position right. A C chord slid up to the seventh fret. This one is a little tricky as well because you will have to grab the triad woith your middle, ring and pinky fingers, wile you bar the first three strings with your index finger.Remove your ring finger and your pinky and there is your D position again. Right? This was one of Weirs favorite chords. Continue on up the neck until it repeats itself. Soon you will associate the scale with the chord shape or vise versa. That is how Jerry never got lost. From there you can go where ever you want.

Try this, grab the B bar chord on the 7th fret(actually the E position) and work the pentatonic and nibble at the arpeggio for one measure. Then switch to the E chord on the same seventh fret. (A position right, an a chord with a bar on the 5th fret) stay ther for a measure and move back to the B. Soon the sweet sounds of Sugaree will be flaoting around your room. Then switch positions. Go to the 12th fret and work that B and E and so on and so on.Try it with Ramble On, He's Gone, Jed. " Memorization" is a nasty word and a TRAP for a musician. I prefer "recognition" .
Poor Peter
Terrapin
Terrapin
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby RollAwayTheDew » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:01 pm

1st Post!

Great advice Pete. Arpeggios play such a huge role in the playing of Jerry, and in my opinion to an even greater extent Trey Anastasio. Using arpeggios as a guideline to soloing can be very liberating in a way, I have always felt it was a good route to escape the boundaries all guitar players feel of just playing within a scale. My favorites example of this are the intro to You Enjoy Myself and Help on the Way/Slipknot. The use of arpeggios in those tunes allow the song to change modes quite frequently, basically telling a narrative through the change in mode and subsequently mood.
RollAwayTheDew
welcome
welcome
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:51 pm

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby Poor Peter » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:52 pm

Yes yes yes brother. Thats it exactly. Jerry never sounded as is if he was repeating himself. Everything sounded fresh and colorful. Mixing arpeggios, with pentatonics, and major scales, chromatics and anything else he could think of. Oh man the colors he could extract from the instrument!! I love the way he used the diminished arpeggio. He would just pull it out from nowhere and it would fit perfectly. I wonder all the time how often he suprised himself.
Poor Peter
Terrapin
Terrapin
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby dleonard » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:06 am

Does anyone have a name for the scale used during alot of the jam at the end of Cassidy? From what I hear it's like a hybrid Mixolydian / Lydian mode.

1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7, 8
dleonard
Bear
Bear
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:45 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:46 am

dleonard wrote:Does anyone have a name for the scale used during alot of the jam at the end of Cassidy? From what I hear it's like a hybrid Mixolydian / Lydian mode.

1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7, 8



Looks to me like the fourth mode of melodic minor.

Melodic minor is the standard major scale with a flatted 3rd - so for example if you built it with a root of G you'd have both a Bb and an F#. If you played it from C to C you'd have the scale you're describing.
User avatar
Rusty the Scoob
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:28 am
Location: Concord, MA

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby Pete B. » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:46 am

'Was just watchin Jer solo on this one and thought it was a good lesson in blending apreggios with scales (good shots starting around 2min 10sec):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN1Z_bAq ... re=related

User avatar
Pete B.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1783
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:59 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby Poor Peter » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:42 am

Pete B. wrote:'Was just watchin Jer solo on this one and thought it was a good lesson in blending apreggios with scales (good shots starting around 2min 10sec):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN1Z_bAq ... re=related


Awesome!!
Poor Peter
Terrapin
Terrapin
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Question about using Modal Scales

Postby Billbbill » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:27 pm

Interesting - he appears to be flat picking the verse and finger picking the chorus - if I'd just heard it I'd of thought all the arpeggios was finger picking.
User avatar
Billbbill
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1783
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Westchester NY

PreviousNext

Return to The Think Tank

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests