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well said

Postby bcresci » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:03 am

RiverRat wrote:
Tone (timbre) is specific to the instrument being played and not to the musician playing it... Different playing styles can yield subtle variations of the timbre, but nothing so dramatic as to make one instrument sound complete unlike itself with some serious audio processing taking place.


RR - well said. I have been befuddled by the constant references to Jerry's tone being in his hands. That just never made sense to me - I thought maybe people were misusing the terms tone and style.

If someone can articulate what specifically they mean by Jerry's tone being in his hands vs. his equipment, I'd love to see a new thread started to hear thoughts on that.
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Re: well said

Postby RiverRat » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:07 am

.
Last edited by RiverRat on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tigerstrat » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:52 am

ELPManticore wrote:Woah, my apoligies for my way off-topic and meandering post... :D Just tried to answer OMD's question and got a bit carried away I guess. Didn't mean to hijack the thread further.


Please don't pretend you are the only one I am addressing with that. I actually hate to topic-cop (although I'm sure that I could have fooled many around here), but worse imho is being so easily manipulated by a hostile, apparently clueless new "member" into going completely outside what WAS a decent (and pretty broad ...AND completely valid) topic and effectively scuttling a thread that could have served the forum for its lifetime.

ELPManticore wrote:Anyone interested in more info, post a thread and I'll jump in on it.


I'm sure you could search out and revive one of the bluegrass or picking technique threads that MUST exist around here somewhere.
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Re: well said

Postby playingdead » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:20 am

bcresci wrote:If someone can articulate what specifically they mean by Jerry's tone being in his hands vs. his equipment, I'd love to see a new thread started to hear thoughts on that.


Not to steal my own thread ;-)

Actually, listen to Django and you hear a lot of Jerry's roots, much more than anywhere else, I think, at least from a guitarist perspective.

But in terms of his hands, Jerry used several different vibrato techniques with his left hand, ranging from moving the string horizontally, moving his finger on the string vertically, varying the speed, the depth, whether he was just moving his finger or his entire wrist, etc. etc. etc.

Jerry also did a mix of flatpicking and fingerpicking, often tucking the pick up between his index finger and stump.

He also varied greatly his attack on different notes, he would really snap the strings at times, or pick it very delicately. He was very into defining each note individually.

He was particular about where on the neck he was playing certain passages, preferring the sound of midrange notes high up on the low strings in certain instances, for example.

He also used his thumb occasionally, doing partial barre chords with it, instead of laying his index finger across all six strings, he'd catch the low string with his thumb, and barre the upper strings with the pad of his index finger, that gives you more reach on the higher strings with your other three fingers.

He used his pinky a lot; lots of guitarists hardly use it at all because it's the weakest finger.

He had a fairly unique way of strumming the guitar, which you don't often hear from other guitarists, it's very percussive.

These are all things that are exclusive of his gear, and, in my opinion, have a lot to do with his tone.

There are other cool little touches, like playing the solo in Loser or that one riff in Tennessee Jed with harmonics, and so forth. What a creative genius he was!
Last edited by playingdead on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tennessee Jedi » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:04 pm

Live Deads DarkStar is a good example of that - with minimum fx he gets a great array of sounds.There are some thumb and pick squeals,tone knob work,volume swells;feedback;etc. all on one track.
Very creative !
:smile:
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good tips

Postby bcresci » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:18 pm

Thanks, guys. All good tips. I'll listen to those tracks and see what I can hear. Although what Rat says still makes sense to me. Maybe it's just in the ear of the listener how much tone changes with style. Perhaps my mother was right...I really should have turned down the music with the headphones on. :?
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Postby ELPManticore » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:37 pm

Please don't pretend you are the only one I am addressing with that.


Well, obvi not, but still, I don't want to step on any toes. And it was sort of rambling.

Might just track down the older threads tonight and add some info.

Main gist of my post/Jer's tone - bluegrass tech. is only a tree, you're still missing the forrest. My opinion is that soul (yah call me new age, but everyone knows what i mean) is more part of tone than anything else. (Hence why people sound different on the same setup)

And I suppose I should comment on the topic:

Playin: F*ckin-A right Dude! :cool:
-Peace,

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Postby Capt Rosebuddy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:11 pm

like playing the solo in Loser


Exactly what I was going to say, Jerry was a genus when it came to phasing and technique in his playing. the Loser solo is a fantastic example, also anything before say..'75 no effects raw clean picking, I've just been listing to 8/25/72, I'm not sure how else Jerry would get such a great open sound from the beginning riff of He's Gone w/o doing a clever pinky finger thing. Shoot for that matter listen to any Stagger Lee all solid finger picking.
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Postby jeffm725 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:36 am

I dont know how this thread got to 16 pages, and i dont want to know.........

All I hope and wish for is for Vic to please stop yanking everybody's chain! :shock: :lol:


If anything useful came out of this thread, it is the comedic value of the "Vic is yanking everyones chain" comment.

frickin' priceless......!!!
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Postby tigerstrat » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:35 am

I'm doing a complete 180: let's do away with "topics" altogether. Amplifiers too; its been determined that we don't need them.
"There, in huge black letters, was 'The Grateful Dead'. It just... cancelled my mind out."-Garcia
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Postby Tennessee Jedi » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:07 am

You mean I CANT make my Peavey Bandit sound like a cranked Twin because I have good hands ?
Gasp !
:lol:
My studies of bluegrass have let me down again !
On the subject of FX I see no difference between a pedal an amp a electric guitar - they are all beast's of tubes and circuitry.All will impart something to your sound.
How many speakers was Jerry pushing back when he "had no FX" ?
I dont think any one mantra will get the Jerry sound - of course its combination of things.
Hands brains gear drugs etc
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Postby Pete B. » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:34 am

The reason why some guys sound very Jerry-ish with non-Jerry gear, is mainly "in the hands".
The reason why some guys wouldn't sound like Jerry even if Jerry passed them his guitar half way through a GD set, is "in the hands".
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Postby Tennessee Jedi » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:18 am

Why didnt Jerry just plug straight into a Twin ?
:lol:
Because he wanted to tweak his sound.I dont think its a bad thing either.
Did someone on this thread say the only way to get a Jerry sound was thru gear ?
Did someone say Jerry was all gear ?
I really dont see what the big deal is - for sure his hands were the biggest part of his sound.
But he obviously had a love of gear or he wouldnt have invested so much time in on board FX loops;built in FX like a Strato blaster;active electronics,etc.
Tools are tools - gear is a tool.
Petey Pete
I play with guys who do "Stranger" - I need to have the wah/octave thing going - hence gear.Thats the angle I'm seeing this thread from.
NOTHING beats listening and learning when it comes to having fun on the old guitar.
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everybody wins

Postby bcresci » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:24 am

RiverRat wrote:
Tone (timbre) is specific to the instrument being played and not to the musician playing it... Different playing styles can yield subtle variations of the timbre, but nothing so dramatic as to make one instrument sound complete unlike itself with some serious audio processing taking place. In other words, a radical modification of the original Attack-Decay-Sustain-Release envelope.


So if we accept Rat's definition of tone for a moment, I guess my question is do the techniques described by Vic have a significant effect on the timbre / Attack-Decay-Sustain-Release of the sound? My gut tells me they might affect it some, but not to an extreme extent.

I guess getting Jerry's sound has to come down to getting equipment that can produce similar Timbre and and playing with the style that Vic described well.

How's that for middle of the road?
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Postby Tennessee Jedi » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:29 am

Look - I just like looking at peps rigs !
:lol:
The gear head vs. the purist thing is old.
We are all gonna go home tonight and practice anyway.
:lol:
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