Groove Tubes Trio preamp

Chat about Equipment Info

Postby waldo041 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:03 am

playingdead wrote:I'm going to do an experiment at our gig in Vermont this weekend; I just picked up a preowned Trio and a new 250 watt solid state power amp. I'll run the Tiger into the Trio into my 2X12 Hard Truckers cabinet with my JBL E-120s for the first set, and then go to my regular Twin head for the second set. We'll record off the board and, hopefully, I'll be able to post some results. I'll use the Holy Grail reverb on both to take that out of the equation.


COOL!
the KEY, imho, to getting that acoustical sound is the removal of jerry's onstage speaker cab. the trios with the new amp will have more power, but i am sure the twin and trios/amp will be rather close in sound/tone with the e-120's on stage. an unmic'd direct to the soundboard line from the trios needs to be ran to get that acoustical sound/tone.


> = into

1.)twin > speakers - or just a twin. early early jerry
3.)preamped twin > tube amp > speakers - Early Jerry
4.)preamped twin > SS amp > speakers - Main jerry
5.)trios > SS amp > speakers - late jerry -JGB shows
6.)trios > soundboard - late jerry -GD shows


there is an audible difference in jerrys sound/tone between #5 and #6 shows. the difference is the key to the acoustical tone.

peace,
waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
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Postby strumminsix » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:20 am

I have to agree with Vic & Waldo about the speaker emulation to being the key to "acoustic" sound.
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Postby BayAreaBB » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:46 am

I also agree with Vic and Waldo.

Is there a way (if one wanted) to emulate the Trio > Soundoard in a home studio environment?

I also picked up an ADA Microcab a couple years back (as seen in Jerry's rack mid-late 94). Can the benefits of this unit be heard if used in a typical guitar>preamp>poweramp>speakers setup? Where would the best placement be?
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Postby playingdead » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:20 am

I tried a Microcab a while back ... wasn't that impressed with it.

You would put the Microcab between the preamp and the full-range speakers (i.e., the board to the PA or to your recording device).

You can run the signal direct from the Trio to your board for recording as well, which is likely how it was working when Jerry was using it. I really have no idea why the Mac was even in the rack at that point, there couldn't have been much point to it for driving the ear monitors. Maybe it lived in the rack for when his rig went out with the Garcia Band so he could use the JBLs?
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Postby waldo041 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:33 am

playingdead wrote: Maybe it lived in the rack for when his rig went out with the Garcia Band so he could use the JBLs?



i agree 100% !!!

jerry didn't have multiple racks/rigs, so in all likelyhood that is exactly why it is in the rack.

peace,
waldo
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Postby jenkins » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:43 am

THere is a pic from late '94 of the GD playing shoreline. Jerry has a 2x12 mic'd cab. Phil and bobby also have speakers.
So it seems that the GD weren't completly happy with no speakers on the stage.

Did jerry ever actually use a speaker emulator or not??

They used crest power amps to power their in-ear monitors.

playing dead- You comparison between the TRIO and the twin should be very interesting.
I think you have it backwars about what they lost when they went to in-ear monitors
a quote from phil's book :
"the sound we wre hearing through the little in ear speakers was shirll, tinny, and sorely lacking in low-end warmth"
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Postby waldo041 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:26 am

jenkins wrote:THere is a pic from late '94 of the GD playing shoreline. Jerry has a 2x12 mic'd cab. Phil and bobby also have speakers.
So it seems that the GD weren't completly happy with no speakers on the stage.


Late 94 Shoreline - 2 - 12"
Image

Late 94 Shoreline - 4 - 12"
Image

Mid 94 Shoreline - No 12"
Image



peace,
waldo
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Postby jenkins » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:53 am

Thanks for posting those waldo. Interesting pix.
On that middle pic with the 4x12" cab. The cab is not mic'd. I wonder if he was going direct to soundboard and using on stage monitors, or waht was going on.
Im not sure but there is another pic on the page these came from where you can see what is directly behind jerry in this pic. It looks like he is using his blackface/silverface twin preamp box. Only it is black instead of wood. It is right on top of his mc2300. AM I seeing this wrong?
The other thing about tese pix is that if u look at the description on the page it says Shoreline '94 and Cal Expo '93. Do you know which one is which?
It looks like late 93 they were still running in-ear only. Than they brought back stage speakers but jerry was still going direct. Than jerry broke out the 2x12 and mic'd the cab, he probbaly missed the sweet tone.

Phil says that removing all the speakers from the stage was great for the sound guys but not for the musicians. I feel that going direct is defintly a big factor in jerry's 90's tone problems.

But we have to remember that there were still great shows during this period where garcia's tone sounded GREAT. These show were just fewer and farther between than they were in years past. I think Garcia's health played more of a role than any of his gear

Were they still running in-ear monitors for their final summer tour?
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Postby waldo041 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:16 pm

after another look!
what is even more interesting in these pic's of late 94 are the reappearance of the old rack. i think i even see a Dist+ next to the Mu-tron pedals. it definately is not the 90's rack. possibly jerry was having his rack worked on?

jenkins, at the guys website he list which shows they are.

peace,
waldo
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Postby playingdead » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:39 pm

I'm wondering if he has his dates scrambled ... I see Leslies to Phil's left and Bruce's piano is in one, but the setlists from 94 don't show Bruce sitting in that run. Weir's rack looks different, too, and he has speakers on stage as well.

Maybe some of those photos are really from 91?
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Postby playingdead » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:43 pm

jenkins wrote:I think you have it backwars about what they lost when they went to in-ear monitors
a quote from phil's book :
"the sound we wre hearing through the little in ear speakers was shirll, tinny, and sorely lacking in low-end warmth"


What I was referring to was the volume they cranked the in-ear monitors up to actually accelerated their hearing loss, and as you lose your hearing, high frequencies go first ... so what sounded bright on the boards may have sounded "normal" to Garcia at that point. This is why you should be careful with those iPod earbuds ;-)
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Postby jenkins » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:57 pm

Right on playingdead, I misenterpreted what you said.

I think that Garcia's hearing loss was probably fairly bad by the time he was 50. I mean my parents and all my friends parents are starting to have hearing problems around that age and they didn't stand in front of speaker stacks for 30 years.

I wonder if he wasn't hearing highs as well and that led to his so called "icepick tone"


Is the GT TRIO point to point circuitry? I know the clean circuit is supposed to be a recreation of a fender blackface but wasn't sure if it was PTP or not.


On that guys page he might have his dates messed up.
The one where garcia has a 2x12 cab hornsby's piano is cleary there, as playing dead pointed out. It's possible horsnby was sitting in that show but it looks like that was the keys setup from'91 when they had 2 keyboards. I think playingdead might be right about that show being form '91.
In that pic he is also using his silverface/blackface preamp which is in a black casing. ON that same site you can see it form another angle.

Seems like garcia and the GD was constanly changing their gear all through the 90's.
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Postby jenkins » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:10 pm

I think that pic is actually from '90. I have a few picture that I printed from a website of the dead playing MSG 9-20-90. Garcia has the exact same rig. 2x12 mic'd cab next to his blackface/silverface which is on top of his mc2300. nest to it is his old rack form the 70's with his effects in it.

The 2 keyboardists are set up the exact same way.
Either the GD tried their '90 setup in '94 including the 2 keys, or the guy has his pix labeled wrong.
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Postby waldo041 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:22 pm

robert minkin has some 91 shoreline pics. i would have to say those are 91 and not 94 rigs. good call vic!

peace,
waldo
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Postby BayAreaBB » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:17 pm

It's interesting to note that for the period 94-95, Jerry switched between Bolt and Rosebud as follows:

1994
Feb Oakland - Bolt
March AZ through August NJ - Rosebud
Sep Shoreline - Bolt returns for remainder of year. Perhaps Jerry left it in the Bay Area to be worked on in Feb 94 and got it back when he returned in Sep 94 at Shoreline.

1995
Feb Oakland through June Shoreline - Bolt
June VT through Solider Field - Rosebud, with Tiger at last show.
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