that distinctive 74 tone

[caspersvapors]

How did Jerry achieve that tone unique to 1974 w/ Wolf? Reading up on the first design of Wolf it essentially has Fender Strat guts, yet it doesnt really have that raw Strat sound. So what was Jerry doing?

[tigerstrat]

That's really what it is.

Debate continues on whether the pickups were Fenders or custom rewound at Alembic, or what(and the techs of the time either don't remember or won't tell) - but basically, from Oct 1973 to Oct 1974, it's a neck-thru three-single-coil guitar into a non-master vol. Twin Reverb which preamps several hugely powerful solidstate amps and an up to 25ft vertical column of between 16-20 JBL K-120 speakers! The massive distortion he occaissionally uses is from an Alembic Stratoblaster mounted in the Wolf.

[strumminsix]

Here are some factors that must be considered:
#1 - The pickups (as stated above)
#2 - Instruments converted to low impedence (different signal feel)
#3 - Seperation of poweramp from the Fender Twin which provides a different feel.

Okay, so most of ya probably run into combos but think differently on the old days when most amps (like the Twin) had a single gain stage so the only way to distort was by cranking it to an insane volume.

Now with the preamp seperated, he has the ability to dial in the tone irrespective of the volume. If you take a stack of gear and play it low, you get one sound. Then crank it up and adjust all your settings and you'll get a similar sound but different since the tubes are working a bit hotter.

I wish I knew more about the equipment used during that time but to my ears it appears with the wall up behind them with all new poweramps we are getting something unique in the poweramps.

What I do know is that they (sound crew) looked for full range, flat response poweramps and loud-speakers. That configuration would basically be straight amplification without coloring of tone from the mic'd amps. This would likely be the key to the tone that is heard.

Their soundguys were ahead of thier time in many ways. Another thing to consider is bleed: from mic'd amp to another mic'd amp, from the stage to FOH, mic'd amps and vocal mics, monitors, mains, ya know the rest....

My best guess after all this insight into my thoughts, is that JG (and all) where running their amps a bit lower than they used to relying more on the Wall to obtain pure sonic bliss.

Then again I could dead wrong and maybe JG was using the Mesa that he used in the studio at times on these tours.

[tigerstrat]

In all 1973 and 1974 stage pics, it's clearly his older Blackface Twin, possibly the same one that became the "backup" Twin in his Oct 1976-1992 rig.

The Mesa Super 60 combo(s) possibly appeared at Legion of Mary shows in 1974 (and I just saw them in a 1979 pic w/ Reconstruction), but its use with the Dead was evidently 3/23/75 to 10/3/76

[waldo041]

hey now, even though he may or may not have had stock Fender pickups or custom wound alembic's, wolf was different then a strat.

Wolf may have had the feel of a strat it in no way was made like a strat. for starters it is neck thru and the bridge tail piece makes the angle of the neck more like a Les Paul.

the electronics contribute to a guitars tone but the wood and how it is made play a big part ie.. Neck Thru(wolf), Set Neck(tiger&rosebud), or Bolt On(alligator). alligator's tone is not all that strat like after he changed the bridge and angled the neck.




peace,
waldo

[strumminsix]

In all 1973 and 1974 stage pics, it's clearly his older Blackface Twin, possibly the same one that became the "backup" Twin in his Oct 1976-1992 rig.

Just cuz the amp is there doesn't mean that he is using the speaker and poweramp sections of it. That's one thing that struck me odd was seeing pics of the combos knowing the poweramp and speaker weren't being used. I always wondered why he just didn't have someone convert it to a head.

But then I figured Jerry being Jerry he felt there was no need to destroy something when he can easily just use one part of it.

[waldo041]

Your right strumminsix. he eventually had both a silverface and blackface stuck into a twin reverb cabinet and turned it sideway's. don't forget that along with using the twin's preamp he also got to keep the tube reverb and used his share of it. another overlooked part of his tone.




peace,
waldo

[tigerstrat]

In all 1973 and 1974 stage pics, it's clearly his older Blackface Twin, possibly the same one that became the "backup" Twin in his Oct 1976-1992 rig.

Just cuz the amp is there doesn't mean that he is using the speaker and poweramp sections of it. That's one thing that struck me odd was seeing pics of the combos knowing the poweramp and speaker weren't being used. I always wondered why he just didn't have someone convert it to a head.

I didn't mean to imply that any combos' power amps or speakers were being employed. But if you are referring to the Twin(s) (the part of my post that you quoted), he did turn the Twin into a head , sort of: sometime before Fall tour 1973, he mounted just the chassis of the '65? BF in a rack with two MC2300's and a small mixer.

Prior to that in 1973 (as shown in Bruce Polonsky's awesome 5/20/73 pics for example), he had the BF combo (preamp-only we assume) feeding MC2300(s) driving a more modest stack of 6-8 JBL's. The first show with the BF + '68 SF two-Twins-in-one-Twin-cab appears to have been the Day On The Green 10/9/76.

All that aside, I did mention the Wolf's neck-thru construction, but I'm not sure how the neck angle should affect tone...?

[strumminsix]

TS ~ cool! The way the strings are tensioned does impact tone. Don't know how but know it does. Learned that after hanging with a luthier and hearing his stories.

[waldo041]

All that aside, I did mention the Wolf's neck-thru construction, but I'm not sure how the neck angle should affect tone...?

tigerstrat my man, sorry to step on your toes. in my haste i did overlook that part of you post. i thought i could shed some light on why 'Wolf Sounds like Wolf".

maybe i should have explained better the attributes of an angled neck setup.

String height play's a big part in tone. it makes the guitar fuller and more resonant.imho. a bridge and tailpiece setup(like a les paul)make the strings taller and different to play then a stock strat tremelo setup. the added height makes angling the neck neccessary to intonate the guitar. with this style of guitar the headstock is almost alway's angled. this also adds, along with a taller bridge and saddle, to a longer string length which also affects the tone of a guitar.; it also eliminates the need for string tree'a and produce's longer sustain. imho. i guess i referred an angled neck to a certain type of guitar setup.

jerry had Alligator modded by alembic or someone there to have this type of setup, they angled the neck because they put a custom bridge and tailpiece on it. they did not however change the fender slab-board neck. this definately contributed to why Alligator sounded like Alligator.

i don't believe jerry played another guitar that was not setup like this with the dead, beside the roland ready strat when he was testing the midi.

hope this clears things up.

peace,
waldo

[caspersvapors]

good observation waldo, I never realized that alligator had an angled neck. And I always did wonder why Alligator didnt sound quite like a strat

what did you mean by "set neck" and "bolt on" in this

the electronics contribute to a guitars tone but the wood and how it is made play a big part ie.. Neck Thru(wolf), Set Neck(tiger&rosebud), or Bolt On(alligator)

[waldo041]

good observation waldo, I never realized that alligator had an angled neck. And I always did wonder why Alligator didnt sound quite like a strat

what did you mean by "set neck" and "bolt on" in this

the electronics contribute to a guitars tone but the wood and how it is made play a big part ie.. Neck Thru(wolf), Set Neck(tiger&rosebud), or Bolt On(alligator)

well, wolf is an example of a thru body guitar it's neck runs all the way thru the body.

tiger and rosebud were set neck's there body's were routed for and a custom fit neck glued in.

a bolt on is your standard stratocater where the neck is just bolted on to the body.

they all have there own sound. the difference between them all is how well the strings react(vibrate)to the transfer in the wood.

the thru body is the best as it has no glue or bolt's to deal with.

a set neck need's to have the neck and body glued tightly.

a bolt on has to have enough torque on the bolt's to optimally transfer the vibration's.


peace,
waldo

[tigerstrat]

I'd be extremely interested to know where you came by this information about Alligator having an angled neck.

And fwiw, it does sound just like a Strat to my ears. A Strat w/a blaster.

[waldo041]

not only did they add a alembic bridge and custom made tailpiece but they added wood underneath both. now to accomodate the added height you have to angle the neck or else it would almost be like playing the action of an up right bass. the strings would be way to far away from the fretboard for anyone to play. all they did was shim it so that they could setup and intonate it to jerry;'s spec's. i didn't come by the information from any GD sources. and i didn't just make it up. some things are just common sense when you work on and learn the process to build guitar's. i also have a bud who cloned alligator to a T and this was also confirmed with him as to getting it to play.

Scroll down and look at his clone
http://www.jackofroses.com/gallery.htm

jerry's gem
http://dozin.com/jers/guitars/Strat.htm

it's the only way to do it unless you make a bridge and tailpeice low enough.

and fwiw, it doesn't sound like a traditional strat to me. but that's my opinion. isn't america great!
"wave that flag wave it wide and high"

peace,
waldo

p.s. that is my strat underneath. it's not a clone but it's mine w/ jerry's effects loop & unity gain buffer installed by myself. Brian did the chrome pickguard plate and strat dual jackplate i designed,.

[tigerstrat]

hey I just heard about Jack of Roses hadn't checked 'em out yet... I've been wondering how I was going to do the fx-loop jack on my Schecter, and this gives me some ideas.

Very cool clone! Only Alligator replica I've seen. How did he know how high to make (or to shim) the bridge & tail? That top view pic seems to be the only really close look anyone has had at it in 30 years, and it doesn't show elevation very well...

So did it also have the angled neck in it's Alligator-less Europe '72 incarnation? Because the block of wood (never realized what that was before!) doesn't seem to be there.

I wonder if the Dan Erlwine Strat also had an angle, or the '57 'burst... nah, not the Burst!!

God, look at the sorry state gator is in today... corroded, missing a vol pot, and wires sticking out under the scratchplate...