CAGED questions

Postby mrMix » Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:22 pm

+1 on Fretboard Logic.
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i say...

Postby XxRouninxX » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:02 pm

i say that fretboard logic is worth it, especially if you dont have a good teacher (or you are selfeducated). Theres plenty of resources on the web, but i have come to appreciate the effort bill edwards has put into his series. Its a logical step by step thing where each section builds off the last, its worth every penny, its pretty much my private guitar tutor (plus you guys and jdarks) even after having all three editions for 7 years, i still refer to them daily.

To add on to everyones answers, the important thing with the 5 chord forms is to learn them as open, then as barre forms (same fingering, but using fingers 2 3 and 4 for the shapes and the 1 finger to barre the "open" notes, and then move them up and down the fretboard, so that if you play an E form, barred first fret, it becomes F, and an A form barred second fret, becomes a B chord.

Okay once you learn this, then heres the secret.

Play an open C form. Now at the end of the form (the fret where the root lies) play your A form.. Now you are playing the same chord, but different position. Now where the A form ends, play your G form, and you are STILL playing a C chord. Continue thru this process and you will see that from fret 0 - 12 the C A G E and D forms lined up back to back will show you 5 ways to play the same chord up and down the neck.

Next you learn what degrees each note in each form are, and where your 1,3,5 nuclei are.

Then you will start to see how all the chords, scales, triads arpeggios and whatnot lay over eachother and connect to eachother, to give you a roadmap for the fretboard no matter where you are.

Anyways I do reccomend the books, its a small investment (get the SE I and II combined, its not that expensive). there are countless ways and people to learn music from, but hey ive been locked up in this room with a guitar, my fretboard logic books, google and a shitload of hendrix,GD, zeppelin etc. Thats how i learned and id never take it back :)

and if you have any problems working through the material feel free to contact me ive practically memorized the books ;)
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Postby XxRouninxX » Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:03 am

sorry i didn't even answer your question
to get your C and G minor forms, look here

C major form with degrees marked (C=1 E=3 G=5)
E|--0-- 3
B|--1-- 1
G|--0-- 5
D|--2-- 3
A|--3-- 1
E|--0-- 3

G major form, same deal
E|--3-- 1
B|--0-- 3
G|--0-- 1
D|--0-- 5
A|--2-- 3
E|--3-- 1

So you know a major chord is a 1 3 5, and a minor chord is 1 b3 5. when you deviate from your major forms, not all the forms are full, there are sometimes a string or two that must be muted (you cant flat an open string) in barre position you can adjust your fingerings, but some are complicated, thats why its good to know many different voicings, but theres is where it begins, cuz you can learn to pick the nucleus out of your forms and alters specific degrees. I will just X the strings you dont play


C minor form with degrees marked (C=1 Eb=3b G=5)
E|--X-- b3 <----cant play in open position
B|--1-- 1
G|--0-- 5
D|--1-- b3 <---all we did was flat this note
A|--3-- 1
E|--X-- b3 <----cant play in open position


G major form, same deal
E|--X-- 1 <----left out for ease
B|--X-- b3 <----cant play in open position
G|--0-- 1
D|--0-- 5
A|--1-- b3 <---- flatted this note
E|--3-- 1

the high E stirng is left out for ease of use, but if you get creative with your fingerings you can mute the B string and still hit all the other ones, thats all for now :) hope that helps

ps: anyone considering buying, dont get the 90 dollar package.. i mean you can, but the video is really kind of redundant, and the books are niceley presented that even a complete beginner can start to pick through. Although there are a few nuggets of information in the videos, just the first book alone (well the SE with I and II combined) is all you need.
i told myself when i began "if i just learn all these patterns and how they connect and overlay, then the rest should come naturally" and its been pretty true. These books are just a guitarists treasure, and i would even reccomend them to experienced guitarists as well. anyways..
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Postby CaptainTrips » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:01 am

I am always gonna be skeptical of buying a guitar book for that amount of money. I dont trust it.
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Postby golfnutt » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:18 am

I found this for the book only seems resonable

http://www.amazon.com/Fretboard-Logic-S ... 656&sr=8-1
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Postby XxRouninxX » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:05 am

yea the book isn't 90 bucks, three books and a dvd are.. thats why i said screw the dvd.. 14 bucks for two guitar books is not a bad deal at all methinks :) although they were more expensive when i got them some years ago

it appears you can buy it with this book
http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Fretboard- ... 656&sr=8-1

for 23 bucks.. unfortunately i cant say that ive read that one, but the reviewers seem to like it alot.
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Postby Pete B. » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:21 am

I found this sites layout of the CAGED system to work for me. It goes through each form, and at the end has a "putting it all together" segment:
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/major-caged/index.php
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Postby XxRouninxX » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:35 am

i always liked cyberfret, they have awesome information, but the site is hard to navigate a bit as well.

Check out thier article on "mixotonic" scales, the guy put together mixolydian and pentatonics to make a scale that sounds pretty cool over some dead stuff
heres the link
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/brian-h ... /index.php


i also like guitarnoise alot
http://www.guitarnoise.com/lessons.php

also check CAGED on youtube, theres some good videos, once i get my equipment ill make soem videos too
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Postby d-v-s » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:39 am

I was trying out the little exercise XxrouninxX suggested - start with the open C, then play the A form of the C, barred at the 3rd, then the G form, barred at the 5th, etc. I was doing good on that until I got the D form. This one always screws me up. I know it's not an easy one to finger, but I'm just wondering how others do it.

Do you barre the 3 strings on the top on the 12th fret, and only use 3 fingers, like this:
E|--12-- finger 2
B|--13-- finger 3
G|--12-- finger 2
D|--10-- finger 1
A|------
E|------

or do you use all 4 fingers, like this?
E|--12-- finger 2
B|--13-- finger 4
G|--12-- finger 3
D|--10-- finger 1
A|------
E|------
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Postby Billbbill » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:59 am

XxRouninxX wrote:Check out thier article on "mixotonic" scales, the guy put together mixolydian and pentatonics to make a scale that sounds pretty cool over some dead stuff
heres the link
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/brian-h ... /index.php


Essentially just changing the 2nd of the minor pent scale to a maj 3rd. Definitely Jerryesque especially if you hammer on that maj 3rd. from a half step back. Jerry was very fond of raising the 2nd of the minor pent scale a half step. It's all over the place.
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Postby XxRouninxX » Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:53 pm

d-v-s wrote:I was trying out the little exercise XxrouninxX suggested - start with the open C, then play the A form of the C, barred at the 3rd, then the G form, barred at the 5th, etc. I was doing good on that until I got the D form. This one always screws me up. I know it's not an easy one to finger, but I'm just wondering how others do it.

Do you barre the 3 strings on the top on the 12th fret, and only use 3 fingers, like this:
E|--12-- finger 2
B|--13-- finger 3
G|--12-- finger 2
D|--10-- finger 1
A|------
E|------

or do you use all 4 fingers, like this?
E|--12-- finger 2
B|--13-- finger 4
G|--12-- finger 3
D|--10-- finger 1
A|------
E|------


Well fingerings are more of a matter of convention and efficiency.. How you finger a form really depends on how you are moving into it, where you are moving out of it, and what notes you need/neednot play.

The D form is also one of the harder ones to play, and some of the altered chords make the D form barely recognizable.

That being said, i tend to play it with all four pinkies, and this will be rewarding for you because it will help train your pinkie, and for me making my pinky as functional as say my ring finger is an important part of my development.

THAT being said.. its also useful to begin with simpler, and easier techniques with the harder stuff, until you get used to it. Its like playing the A form with just your first and third fingers, and negating the high e.. plenty of players do it, and theres nothign wrong with it.

Practice both, begin with what you can, and move into whats harder.. In the end it doesn't matter how you play it, but its good to be proficient in a multitude of ways

PS: i just realized you were doing the first way with fingers 1 2 and 3, that can help improve the reach between fingers one and two, but thats not a healthy way to hold the chord as far as your wrists are concerned, try it the same way but with fingers 1 3 and 4
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Postby shakedown_04092 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:59 pm

d-v-s wrote:I was trying out the little exercise XxrouninxX suggested - start with the open C, then play the A form of the C, barred at the 3rd, then the G form, barred at the 5th, etc. I was doing good on that until I got the D form. This one always screws me up. I know it's not an easy one to finger, but I'm just wondering how others do it.

Do you barre the 3 strings on the top on the 12th fret, and only use 3 fingers, like this:
E|--12-- finger 2
B|--13-- finger 3
G|--12-- finger 2
D|--10-- finger 1
A|------
E|------

or do you use all 4 fingers, like this?
E|--12-- finger 2
B|--13-- finger 4
G|--12-- finger 3
D|--10-- finger 1
A|------
E|------


Hey D -

I actually use all 4 fingers, I find it easier that way, but I'll be honest, I rarely use that form to begin with....


EDIT: I actually just tried the other way (barring it) and I can't even do it w/ fingers 1, 3, & 4. I can do it using 1, 2, & 3, but it is tough, and I don't ever see myself doing it like that.
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Postby XxRouninxX » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:21 pm

the whole form itself isn't very useful below the 9th or 10th fret, there are a couple of useful derived forms, plus knowing it and how to play it in the caged series will reinforce your knowledge of moving around the fretboard, and help you see overlaying patterns.
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Postby d-v-s » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:13 pm

rounin/shakedown,
thanks for the feedback. yeah, I don't plan on using this form to much, but the more exercises i run my fingers through, the more they behave and do as they're told.
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