Rosebud Middle PUP

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby James-T » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:55 am

Hey Mike,

Thanks for posting that explanation on bass and treble response. It makes total sense to me now why PRS calls their neck pups bass pickups and thier bridge pups treble pickups. :)

Peace,

James
James-T
Phil
Phil
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Bobbybriand » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:31 am

waldo041 wrote:With the Dimarzio stamp right side up in the cavity or placed in the cavity "stock", the North coil is South and the South coil is North. So, if you use the stock coil cut wiring with black and white to ground it renders the North coil active and you must physically flip the pickup so that it is "Neck side" when cut. Someone depicted this precisely for a reason on their schematic so that it was easily duplicated.



~waldo


The gary brawer version of rosebud you posted is perfect. This tiger pic should have the bridge bucker's writing right side up and all three wires grounded except red to make north(neck)coil active. Unless there is a layer of wood(would eliminate out of phase) between the 2 buckers the middle bucker should be upside down writing(flipped) and all three wires grounded except green which is north(neck)coil active when flipped.
In this pic posted both buckers are flipped but wired standard not reversed. If you set up your buckers this way flipped n red wire hot the south(bridge) coils are active not north(neck) and are out of phase both magnetically and electrically. Also the sds-1 should have white wire positive onto pup selector and black grounded. Just look at the Gary Brawer diagram in the rosebud section of wald-electronics which is waldo's site. You'll get it. Even google open cavity 3 humbucker wiring gary brawer. On his site he explains in more depth. All I know is when I wired my open cavity triple dp104's the wat Brawer explains it was like night and day when it came to sparkle,sustain,and sweetest spot sounding notes. Some people put a phasing switch or a coil selector switch. If you had a coil selector you would know right away which is the sweetest coil.
Image
The Tiger picture the bridge pup needs to be flipped with the writing right side up then its wired correctly as is. The middle it needs to be left upside down but wired withe green hot,(just swap red out for green). Also if youre running a neck dp104 bucker it needs to be installed right side up and red wire hot.
There's so many options. Right now I have my neck dp104 wired for parallel sound(second cleanest n hum cancelling). Which is great for strumming songs and strumming intros Jer style.
Last edited by Bobbybriand on Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bobbybriand
Donna
Donna
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Bobbybriand » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:36 am

Anyway as mentioned and hope other peeps will chip in. The distance from 3rd string saddle to my middle dimarz104 north(neck) coil is 3 3/4 inches(sweetspot). Can some of you post your distances from eg 3rd string saddle to the poles of a single coil and or bucker with neck coil active in their middle position?
Bobbybriand
Donna
Donna
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby waldo041 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:59 am

My Wolf, Tiger and Rosebud wiring layouts on my website are all correct.

~waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Bobbybriand » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:50 am

I already read the same story on here before you put up gary brawers pic on your site. Um yes a wall of wood between pups blocks magnetic waves. I dont need a multimeter to know what I'm talking about. It's called MAGNETIC REPEL which will cause major tonal loss. Reverse wiring doesn't fix the out of phase problem. The middle pup is reverse wired to keep north coil(neck active when split) because its flipped to avoid MAGNETIC REPEL. Even stratocasters have a path in the wood coming down the middle of the pup cavity for the wires and isn't a solid wall of wood(blocks magnetic fields)between pups. The solution for stratocaster bodies is the Fender guys (1st designer) built their their middle pup with the magnet already installed on the pup upside down.
Long story short cause theirs no point. Phasing has nothing to do with wires. It's all magnets and their polarity. I have built close to 50 guitars from midi models to usb/midi/1/4 mono and w/1/4 stereo out puts. I have found that the dp100 sounds better in the bridge and 2 dp104 for middle n neck. I also dont use a 5 way. I setup all pups in phase and use 3p3t switches....one for each pup that does series/parallel/split north. Each pup has it's own on/off spst switch in front of their mode switch. This setup gives a guitar the most possible sound modes.
Bobbybriand
Donna
Donna
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby waldo041 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:26 am

Bobbybriand wrote:I already read the same story on here before you put up gary brawers pic on your site. Um yes a wall of wood between pups blocks magnetic waves. I dont need a multimeter to know what I'm talking about. It's called MAGNETIC REPEL which will cause major tonal loss. Reverse wiring doesn't fix the out of phase problem. The middle pup is reverse wired to keep north coil(neck active when split) because its flipped to avoid MAGNETIC REPEL. Even stratocasters have a path in the wood coming down the middle of the pup cavity for the wires and isn't a solid wall of wood(blocks magnetic fields)between pups. The solution for stratocaster bodies is the Fender guys (1st designer) built their their middle pup with the magnet already installed on the pup upside down.
Long story short cause theirs no point. Phasing has nothing to do with wires. It's all magnets and their polarity. I have built close to 50 guitars from midi models to usb/midi/1/4 mono and w/1/4 stereo out puts. I have found that the dp100 sounds better in the bridge and 2 dp104 for middle n neck. I also dont use a 5 way. I setup all pups in phase and use 3p3t switches....one for each pup that does series/parallel/split north. Each pup has it's own on/off spst switch in front of their mode switch. This setup gives a guitar the most possible sound modes.


:roll: :oops: :roll: :lol: :-) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
viewtopic.php?f=419&t=11355&hilit=pickup+wiring+all+wrong
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby TI4-1009 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:41 am

"Code blue to aisle 9.

Code blue to aisle 9."

Bobbybriand wrote: Um yes a wall of wood between pups blocks magnetic waves. It's called MAGNETIC REPEL


I guess that's why my compass doesn't work in the house? Even in the woods it's iffy, what with all those trees getting in the way.
Last edited by TI4-1009 on Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not write so that you can be understood, write so that you cannot be misunderstood." -Epictetus

First show: 8/16/69 (Woodstock)
Last show: 3/19/95 (Unbroken Chain breakout)
Member of the Four-Decade Club
Charter Member, President & CEO of OAD (Order of the Ancient Deadheads)
User avatar
TI4-1009
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1537
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:27 am
Location: Upstate NY- Toodaloo

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby milobender » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:30 am

Bobby, you aren't related to Jason are you?
IO Custom Guitars
http://www.9mileskid.com
Everything we know is wrong...
milobender
Magic Hand
Magic Hand
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:32 am
Location: SE Wyoming

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby schmidtz » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:26 am

Bobbybriand wrote:I dont need a multimeter to know what I'm talking about. It's called MAGNETIC REPEL.


Well, you wouldn't need a multimeter even if you did know what you are talking about, because they can't test for magnetic fields.
Last edited by schmidtz on Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Learn as if you were to live forever; live as if you were to die tomorrow."
schmidtz
Jester
Jester
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:51 pm

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby schmidtz » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:48 am

I suppose, however, that it may be beneficial to enlighten you as opposed to passively aggressively make fun of you.

As you are all well aware, all forms of electromagnetic radiation are composed of a self-propagating transverse oscillating wave of electric and magnetic fields where the two types of fields are always in phase with each other with a fixed ratio of electric to magnetic field intensity. Now for some physics hand-waving (I'll leave out maxwell's equations, but for the interested this is the best place to pick up the subject).

You can therefore think of these waves as composed of equal parts electricity and magnetism. If we view the pickup as a point source (infinitely simplifying our thought experiment) we have an electric field and a magnetic field radiating away from the point in a perfect sphere. Now, as any good guitar tech will tell you, to block the electric portion we simply need to create a Faraday cage around our point source (typically done with metallic paint or tape), but for static or slowly varying magnetic fields (below about 100 kHz) the Faraday shielding described above is ineffective.

In these cases shields made of high magnetic permeability metal alloys can be used, such as sheets of Permalloy and Mu-Metal, or with nanocrystalline grain structure ferromagnetic metal coatings. These materials don't block the magnetic field, as with electric shielding, but rather draw the field into themselves, providing a path for the magnetic field lines around the shielded volume. The best shape for magnetic shields is thus a closed container surrounding the shielded volume. If there were any breaks, joints, or openings in this structure the magnetic field would simply be funneled out of the opening. (As an aside, this is why torroidal transformers need to be oriented such that their leads are pointed away from circuitry)

As we can see from the above, wood will block neither the electric nor the magnetic components of the radiation being expelled from our pickup.
"Learn as if you were to live forever; live as if you were to die tomorrow."
schmidtz
Jester
Jester
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:51 pm

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby TI4-1009 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:32 pm

"Do not write so that you can be understood, write so that you cannot be misunderstood." -Epictetus

First show: 8/16/69 (Woodstock)
Last show: 3/19/95 (Unbroken Chain breakout)
Member of the Four-Decade Club
Charter Member, President & CEO of OAD (Order of the Ancient Deadheads)
User avatar
TI4-1009
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1537
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:27 am
Location: Upstate NY- Toodaloo

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby TI4-1009 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:26 am

Anyway....

I finally measured my Phiga Tiger last night. The center of the neck-side coil of the middle pickup is between 3 1/8" and 3 3/8" from the bridge (depending upon the saddle position. On the Wolfie/SG I just finished it's just slightly less than that.

EDIT:

Knowing the dimensions of a Super 2, and using the Herb Greene photo, you can rough factor that the distance from the center of the neck coil of Tiger's middle pickup to the center of the harmonica bridge should be somewhere between 3 3/4" and 3 31/32". On Rosebud it's more like 4 3/16" because they had to fit the midi pickup between the bridge and the bridge pickup. So obviously that "sweet spot" wasn't sacred to them.

On Bolt it looks like about 3 3/4".
"Do not write so that you can be understood, write so that you cannot be misunderstood." -Epictetus

First show: 8/16/69 (Woodstock)
Last show: 3/19/95 (Unbroken Chain breakout)
Member of the Four-Decade Club
Charter Member, President & CEO of OAD (Order of the Ancient Deadheads)
User avatar
TI4-1009
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1537
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:27 am
Location: Upstate NY- Toodaloo

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby waldo041 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:35 pm

I agree the "sweet spot" is not an exact position, as you have noted. But that "sweet spot" does fall within a very small 1/2 inch range and i think that is where it performs best.

~waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Bobbybriand » Tue May 06, 2014 5:35 am

Amen waldo you know it. Thats the point I was trying to make. As far as the wood and magnetic waves passing through n my mag repel comment. I quoted that from Fender Statocaster website on how they build their single coils since they are the only guitar that definately has a middle pup. They state that on their site that they use a designated pup design for middle in which the magnet is installed reverse direction (opposite) neck n bridge.
Whats with the being in the woods and your compass passes through the wood in the trees???? Oh yeah I forgot the North Star is nickel plated and the magnet is in the compass. Duh your compass works internally with the magnet constantly pulling the needle to the N as in north. lmao
You guys posted pics of custom SG ,LesPauls that have a middle bucker. Just walk into the biggest guitar shop in your town you'll be lucky to see any guitar with a middle bucker.
Look at the warmoth WGD Nails mod. It is a 3 bucker routed body except there is a wall of wood between each bucker and all 3 buckers can be wired with red hot when split without any out of phase issues when using two pups at sametime. Irwins,Cripes,etc. use what is called a swimming pool cavity. Thats where the question lies for waldo on his difference in rosebud diagrams.
"I always have the coils towards the neck and the center pup I flipped it so it would hum cancel neck and bridge. You have to change the wires(green hot) to keep it in phase."-Gary Brawer.
What is your opinion on that whole subject? When ever I bring it up I get bashed but no one bashes Gary. There's two rosebud diagrams which do you believe waldo? I always used green hot n flipped in the center on my routed sg n my replica which I ordered with no electronics or pups. The luthier is well known by all of you and normally won't sell a semi barebone but I managed to get one and I installed 3 dp104s, TPC-1(walds buffer is best of the best,tried several n waldo's is quite noticeable),the only diff I used two 3p3t to utilize the 3 modes series,parallel n split. I did a Cripe style stain n laminate technique using a sharpie purple permanent marker over my 1st layer of stain before laminate. The purple really added an evilish color to it. It's out getting a brass nut installed and brass saddles. Will post pics when I get it back in a week or so.
Looks like Pete Townshend even learned something from Jerry. Check out his cherry les paul and the creme ring and dimarz in the center pos. I heard those cherry lespaul's were labelled 1 thru 5 and identical but he needed 5 because he would constantly be cracking the neck or body when he goes spaz and were constanly being repaired.
Check it: http://youtu.be/Rp6-wG5LLqE
Bobbybriand
Donna
Donna
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby TI4-1009 » Tue May 06, 2014 6:08 am

Image
"Do not write so that you can be understood, write so that you cannot be misunderstood." -Epictetus

First show: 8/16/69 (Woodstock)
Last show: 3/19/95 (Unbroken Chain breakout)
Member of the Four-Decade Club
Charter Member, President & CEO of OAD (Order of the Ancient Deadheads)
User avatar
TI4-1009
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1537
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:27 am
Location: Upstate NY- Toodaloo

PreviousNext

Return to Guitar Building and Mods

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aiq and 1 guest